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A fascinating account of a feature we'd now recognize as 'cruise control'. Despite the technical details being different than modern systems, many of its behavi

A fascinating account of a feature we'd now recognize as 'cruise control'. Despite the technical details being different than modern systems, many of its behaviors are familiar -- like the surreal rollercoaster-tow hillclimbing -- while some have been rectified in more modern systems, like better engine braking to regain the target speed. I believe the UX of vanilla cruise control is a good fit for what it does: it's a fire-and-forget, opt-in mode that's disengaged with a tap of the brake or its own button. It's simple to reason about: do I want the car to gun it at a constant 70 mph, or no? You can run a quick mental judgement call and decide whether to engage it or leave it off. This is completely unlike any other 'assist' feature that came later: ABS, automatic emergency braking, and especially adaptive cruise control. And, in my opinion [1] this vast difference between adaptive and classic cruise control is a safety risk -- features that override driver behavior in case of a condition the car identifies need to have no false negatives, need to be on by default and opt-out instead of opt-in, and need to not be disengaged by trivial inputs like lightly tapping the brakes. In Tesla's particular case, the opt-in UX was even worse, because its automatic emergency braking wouldn't engage if autopilot was off [3] -- a decision contrary to sane user expectation, and completely unlike cars of other premium automakers. And the fact that their emergency braking still can't detect all stationary hazards in a travel lane is tragic. I'm not convinced that classic cruise control is a good case study (or anecdote) to compare emerging driver assist, autodriving, and safety features with. It simply has the exact opposite semantics than every other feature that we have since put in our cars. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16772748#16774258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16772748#16774258 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12097671#12097911 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12097671#12097911 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12011584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12011584

jgibson 8y ago
Have you got a specific case for [3]? I couldn't find anything in the original "A Tragic Loss" post that would indicaate that AEB gets disabled when autopilot is off. This is the first I've heard of this behaviour and I'd like to find out more. I was thinking about getting a Model 3...
- niftich 8y ago
  My source for that assertion is from this different, April 2016 incident [1]. Relevant quote from the article: "In contrast, Tesla says that the vehicle logs show that its adaptive cruise control system is not to blame. Data points to Simpson hitting the brake pedal and deactivating autopilot and traffic aware cruise control, returning the car to manual control instantly. (This has been industry-wide practice for cruise control systems for many years.) Simpson's use of the brake also apparently disengaged the automatic emergency braking system, something that's been standard across Tesla's range since it rolled out firmware version 6.2 last year." [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/05/another-driver-says-teslas-autopilot-failed-to-brake-tesla-says-otherwise/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/05/another-driver-says-tes...
  - kbenson 8y ago
    > > In Tesla's particular case, the opt-in UX was even worse, because its automatic emergency braking wouldn't engage if autopilot was off > Simpson's use of the brake also apparently disengaged the automatic emergency braking system I don't think the second statement necessarily implies the first. The automatic braking system may be a secondary system to the autopilot that is also disengaged when the driver is actively using the brake system. Indeed, that is how I would expect it to function, as if the driver is actively dealing with the current condition, it is probably a bad idea to wrest control away from them. For example, how do you propose a driver would expect to stop automatic braking that happens erroneously? A quick press of the brakes or gas would be my initial guess, and what I would first try. Given that an erroneously acting auto-braking system can also cause accidents, rapid disengagement capability is important.
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      It is one thing to disable cruise control if I've gently tapped the brake pedal to deactivate. With every cruise system I've encountered that happens well before the brakes bite. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't want emergency automatic braking off achieved by the same trigger. (No experience of Teslas to be certain). It is entirely another another if automatic braking or other safety features deactivate when I am scrubbing speed by "slamming on the brakes". That seems like a very bad idea. If my foot slips from the brake pedal that's one common scenario where I would indeed like emergency automatic braking.
NLips 8y ago
I'll agree that the way you think of ABS should be unlike how you think of cruise control, but you shouldn't lump it in with automatic braking or adaptive cruise control. You just never need to think about ABS. It removes the need for the driver to weigh up how much or how fast to pump the breaks in an emergency situation, meaning that if you need to stop, you just slam the pedal, as it should be. Conceptually, ABS means that the driver has a simple interface to make the car behave simply on the road. The other driver aids you mention give the drive a simple interface to make the car behave in a _complex_ way on the road, which is very different. The fact that there are smarts in the implementation is neither here nore there. The same applies to other electronic stability packages introduced 25-20ish years ago which prevent / encourage skids depending on circumstances.
- davedx 8y ago
  > You just never need to think about ABS. It removes the need for the driver to weigh up how much or how fast to pump the breaks in an emergency situation, meaning that if you need to stop, you just slam the pedal, as it should be. Maybe if you learned to drive with ABS in mind. I had to do an emergency brake on the autobahn in Germany a couple of months ago. I instinctively did not slam the brake pedal all the way, and tried to do a controlled brake from a very high speed to a full stop. I just made it and the ABS didn't engage. Is it really recommended to let ABS take over even from very high speeds?
  - chaosite 8y ago
    If you're making an emergency stop, that is, you need to stop fifteen seconds ago, then yes, you're better off just slamming the breaks and letting the ABS do its thing. If you are not a highly trained stunt driver, I'd bet that its better at not locking the wheels then you are. If you have more time then that, feel free to do a controlled brake and coast to a stop. Regarding the learning to drive: I'd highly recommend taking your daily driving car to a defensive driving type course that includes a skid pan. That way you can experience what your car feels like during an emergency break, with ABS, during hydroplaning in a safe environment. This is something that could literally save your life, because you won't be surprised by how your car feels when it happens on the road.
vvanders 8y ago
> In Tesla's particular case, the opt-in UX was even worse, because its automatic emergency braking wouldn't engage if autopilot was off [3] -- a decision contrary to sane user expectation, and completely unlike cars of other premium automakers. And the fact that their emergency braking still can't detect all stationary hazards in a travel lane is tragic. AEB is very much running when autopilot is off, I occasionally trigger the warning when going down the parking garage(car thinks I'm heading head-on into another car). Also after driving rush hour from Oly->Tacoma->Seattle for the last 3 years you can pry Adaptive Cruise control from my cold, dead hands. 75k mi and not a single hiccup or false positive. The mental overhead of having to constantly evaluate vs intervene when someone merges into the lane/etc can't really be understated.

jgibson 8y ago

Have you got a specific case for [3]? I couldn't find anything in the original "A Tragic Loss" post that would indicaate that AEB gets disabled when autopilot is off. This is the first I've heard of this behaviour and I'd like to find out more. I was thinking about getting a Model 3...

niftich 8y ago
My source for that assertion is from this different, April 2016 incident [1]. Relevant quote from the article: "In contrast, Tesla says that the vehicle logs show that its adaptive cruise control system is not to blame. Data points to Simpson hitting the brake pedal and deactivating autopilot and traffic aware cruise control, returning the car to manual control instantly. (This has been industry-wide practice for cruise control systems for many years.) Simpson's use of the brake also apparently disengaged the automatic emergency braking system, something that's been standard across Tesla's range since it rolled out firmware version 6.2 last year." [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/05/another-driver-says-teslas-autopilot-failed-to-brake-tesla-says-otherwise/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/05/another-driver-says-tes...
- kbenson 8y ago
  > > In Tesla's particular case, the opt-in UX was even worse, because its automatic emergency braking wouldn't engage if autopilot was off > Simpson's use of the brake also apparently disengaged the automatic emergency braking system I don't think the second statement necessarily implies the first. The automatic braking system may be a secondary system to the autopilot that is also disengaged when the driver is actively using the brake system. Indeed, that is how I would expect it to function, as if the driver is actively dealing with the current condition, it is probably a bad idea to wrest control away from them. For example, how do you propose a driver would expect to stop automatic braking that happens erroneously? A quick press of the brakes or gas would be my initial guess, and what I would first try. Given that an erroneously acting auto-braking system can also cause accidents, rapid disengagement capability is important.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    It is one thing to disable cruise control if I've gently tapped the brake pedal to deactivate. With every cruise system I've encountered that happens well before the brakes bite. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't want emergency automatic braking off achieved by the same trigger. (No experience of Teslas to be certain). It is entirely another another if automatic braking or other safety features deactivate when I am scrubbing speed by "slamming on the brakes". That seems like a very bad idea. If my foot slips from the brake pedal that's one common scenario where I would indeed like emergency automatic braking.

NLips 8y ago

I'll agree that the way you think of ABS should be unlike how you think of cruise control, but you shouldn't lump it in with automatic braking or adaptive cruise control. You just never need to think about ABS. It removes the need for the driver to weigh up how much or how fast to pump the breaks in an emergency situation, meaning that if you need to stop, you just slam the pedal, as it should be. Conceptually, ABS means that the driver has a simple interface to make the car behave simply on the road. The other driver aids you mention give the drive a simple interface to make the car behave in a _complex_ way on the road, which is very different. The fact that there are smarts in the implementation is neither here nore there. The same applies to other electronic stability packages introduced 25-20ish years ago which prevent / encourage skids depending on circumstances.

davedx 8y ago
> You just never need to think about ABS. It removes the need for the driver to weigh up how much or how fast to pump the breaks in an emergency situation, meaning that if you need to stop, you just slam the pedal, as it should be. Maybe if you learned to drive with ABS in mind. I had to do an emergency brake on the autobahn in Germany a couple of months ago. I instinctively did not slam the brake pedal all the way, and tried to do a controlled brake from a very high speed to a full stop. I just made it and the ABS didn't engage. Is it really recommended to let ABS take over even from very high speeds?
- chaosite 8y ago
  If you're making an emergency stop, that is, you need to stop fifteen seconds ago, then yes, you're better off just slamming the breaks and letting the ABS do its thing. If you are not a highly trained stunt driver, I'd bet that its better at not locking the wheels then you are. If you have more time then that, feel free to do a controlled brake and coast to a stop. Regarding the learning to drive: I'd highly recommend taking your daily driving car to a defensive driving type course that includes a skid pan. That way you can experience what your car feels like during an emergency break, with ABS, during hydroplaning in a safe environment. This is something that could literally save your life, because you won't be surprised by how your car feels when it happens on the road.

vvanders 8y ago

> In Tesla's particular case, the opt-in UX was even worse, because its automatic emergency braking wouldn't engage if autopilot was off [3] -- a decision contrary to sane user expectation, and completely unlike cars of other premium automakers. And the fact that their emergency braking still can't detect all stationary hazards in a travel lane is tragic. AEB is very much running when autopilot is off, I occasionally trigger the warning when going down the parking garage(car thinks I'm heading head-on into another car). Also after driving rush hour from Oly->Tacoma->Seattle for the last 3 years you can pry Adaptive Cruise control from my cold, dead hands. 75k mi and not a single hiccup or false positive. The mental overhead of having to constantly evaluate vs intervene when someone merges into the lane/etc can't really be understated.