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I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are suppose

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is the benefit right now if you strictly follow the rule of remaining alert enough to intervene at a second's notice? In previous threads the best explanation I got from Tesla owners was that it frees you from the "details of physically driving" so you "can now supervise instead."[1] That just seems suspect. Supervising autopilot to the degree required to correct sudden mistakes seems, to me, to be probably very close to the mental load of the details of steering yourself. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17151116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17151116

wpietri 8y ago
Yes. There is zero chance I'd use a system like this. Regular freeway driving is already boring enough that I worry about losing focus. (I supplement with things like caffeine and audiobooks.) There's some threshold of interventions/minute that I think humans just aren't very good at. Which is why there are systems like Threat Image Projection, which turns baggage scanning into what is effectively a video game: https://www.rapiscansystems.com/en/products/rapiscan-threat-image-projection https://www.rapiscansystems.com/en/products/rapiscan-threat-...
- vsl 8y ago
  Try it before making such sure if yourself statements. In my experience it’s LESS boring to drive with autopilot and I pay MORE attention to the actually important, potentially dangerous, things like what’s coming up (you’re actively aware of longer stretch forward, which also means you know you’re coming up to a stretch that autopilot won’t be able to handle well in advance and have plenty of time to disengage) and the cars around it (not watching lanes closely frees you to give all your attention to cars around you).
ohashi 8y ago
The benefit for Tesla would be selling more cars because people think they are getting a technology that isn't really ready but Tesla's claiming is (but also claiming not really, read the fine print).
- abalone 8y ago
  One doesn't have to be quite that cynical. Tesla's goal could genuinely be getting to Level 4/5 autonomy ASAP. My question is whether there is actually any immediate customer benefit to Level 2 autonomy that doesn't technically violate the terms of service.
gutnor 8y ago
The actual benefit is to have the car handles itself in situation where you would be distracted regardless. I engage similar system on my car before fiddling with the attention seeking touch screen, or when I need to give a quick look at the kids behind. Another is traffic jam: a lot of nothing going followed by a lot of things going on - focus on the wrong thing and you can rear end somebody. Minor benefit are some fuel saving if you are a "dynamic" driver, and it can make you more relax in stressful situation like the traffic jam above. That's just to answer your question. I completely agree with you that the feature is overhyped, not worth paying much for it and actively promoting dangerous driving behaviour. However, it nowadays comes nearly for free as a consequence of other very useful systems: the whole set of emergency braking scenario (emergency, cruise control, safety distance, pedestrian, ...), line keeping assist, blind spot monitoring. It has its uses, if you remain aware of its shortcomings.
- abalone 8y ago
  But don't Tesla's have Collision Avoidance Assist on by default? That's a distinct feature from autopilot. That's primarily what helps out in situations that you've noted. Autopilot basically adds autosteering to that. Seems to me that could lull you into more distracted situations that collision avoidance is unable to cope with. Note: autopilot and collision avoidance both came out around the same time, so it's far from clear that autopilot has resulted in a reduction in accident rates, or if it was mostly just the collision avoidance.
- userbinator 8y ago
  before fiddling with the attention seeking touch screen ...in other words, the feature partially works around some of the problems they introduced themselves by using an overly complex touchscreen UI instead of the traditional no-eyes-needed buttons and knobs.
  - vsl 8y ago
    I haven’t seen a non-touchscreen media player in a new mid- to upper-range car in a long time...
userbinator 8y ago
but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? Indeed. When reading Tesla's statement, "The Palo Alto-based automaker, led by Elon Musk, has said it repeatedly warns drivers to stay alert, keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicle at all times while using the Autopilot system." ...one can't help but think, "then WTF is it good for, if I still have to drive the car myself while using it?" Supervising autopilot to the degree required to correct sudden mistakes seems, to me, to be probably very close to the mental load of the details of steering yourself. I'd say the mental load is higher than manually driving --- not unlike being a driving instructor to a student driver who is OK most of the time but occasionally makes a possibly fatal mistake that you need to watch out for and quickly correct. Normally, a car will go in a straight line with no steering input, but the autopilot almost "has a mind of its own" and can steer itself in the wrong direction. This is subtly different from cruise control, which lets you concentrate on steering and rest your foot on the brake so you can use it quickly if needed. Cruise control doesn't encourage lowering attention, but enhances it.
- wooter 8y ago
  The NHTSA found a 40% crash rate reduction from Tesla's autopilot. I'd say thats what its good for.
  - abalone 8y ago
    This stat is widely misunderstood. Tesla rolled out Collision Avoidance Assist and Autopilot around the same time. These variables were not isolated by the NHTSA.[1] It is likely that collision avoidance was the major factor in the crash rate reduction. It is even possible that autopilot increased the accident rate. No doubt collision avoidance is a fantastic feature though. Addendum: Looks likes the NHTSA has disavowed Tesla’s interpretation of that study. They did not evaluate whether autosteer (autopilot) was engaged.[1] [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/effectiveness-of-tesla-autopilot-was-not-assessed-nhtsa.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/effectiveness-of-tesla-autop...
    - buvanshak 8y ago
TeeWEE 8y ago
Well if AutoPilot is statistically saver then a human pilot (I don't know if it is). Then that's a reason to use it.
- TeeWEE 8y ago
  Why does this get downvoted?
Bedon292 8y ago
The freeing of the physical part is really the benefit for me. My knees are bad, and sitting in stop and go traffic, or even long traffic lights can actually be painful. Its not bad, but it gets really annoying. Being able to physically move my leg is amazing. You probably do get a lot of that with just adaptive cruise control these days as well, but no real experience with that. The mental load is still identical, but the physical part is way more relaxed.
- abalone 8y ago
  Exactly: you get that benefit with adaptive cruise control. What autopilot adds is autosteer. What’s the benefit there that doesn’t violate TOS? You are supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and pay full attention just the same.
  - Too 8y ago
    It moves your mind from micro to macro. Instead of focusing on balancing the car within the lane I can look 500m in front and plan further ahead. I can also spend 2 seconds with eyes off road adjusting the navigation compared to without where you can only spend maybe max 0.5sec. I also feel much fresher after a long trip, constant minor adjustments sounds minor but once you've driven with a good lane keeping aid(not the ping-pong versions) it feels so much more comfortable when the steering wheel is magnetically trying to snap to the center of the lane. It still feels like you are driving but the path of least resistance is always pulling you towards the center of the lane. This would still be considered level 2 self driving, the danger comes when you go to level 3 and really take your mind off the road, those I think should never be allowed on the road.
    - userbinator 8y ago
      It still feels like you are driving but the path of least resistance is always pulling you towards the center of the lane. ...except when it doesn't, and you're forced to suddenly comprehend the unusual situation and react before its too late: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I
ajross 8y ago
> But what is the benefit right now if you strictly follow the rule of remaining alert enough to intervene at a second's notice? You have an extra failsafe for those moments where you fail to remain alert. People keep treating these incidents in isolation and failing to account for the fact that human drivers make exactly this kind of fuckup every hour of every day, and lives are lost. Every day. You get that right? Cars. Kill. People. Every day. Tesla is shipping systems in the absolute infancy of this technology that are already statistically indistinguishable from human drivers as far as safety goes. And the luddites here want to throw all that in the garbage because of "what is the benefit right now".
- dbasedweeb 8y ago
  Tesla is shipping systems in the absolute infancy of this technology that are already statistically indistinguishable from human drivers as far as safety goes. That’s a hell of a claim, I’d love to see some serious citations on it.
  - ajross 8y ago
    Oh, for goodness sake. Just Google "Tesla accident rate" and you'll find plenty of yammering on both sides of the argument. But read the numbers therein and you'll find that (1) they're noisy, because it's just one car model and (2) they're clearly in line with what you see with other car statistics. There are plenty of cars that have been detectable death traps. Teslas aren't among them. You're just spooked by the scary computer behind the wheel.
    - dbasedweeb 8y ago
      Filtering out the noise, you’re not willing or able to cite, and I don’t blame you, since you’d probably try to start with the discredited Tesla numbers. Then I’d post the reasons why they’re crap, and you’d grope for some more apples and oranges numbers. I like how you’ve just skipped past all of that and gone straight to the personal attacks, it saves a lot of time. Since you’ve made your claim without a hint of support, here’s my equally unsupported counter-claim: Tesla autopilot is much less safe than a human who wouldn’t accelerate into a cop car, fire truck, or gaurd rail unless dead, or drunk.
nikofeyn 8y ago
> Supervising autopilot to the degree required to correct sudden mistakes seems, to me, to be probably very close to the mental load of the details of steering yourself. intuitively, the load seems higher. this is because your brain must now include predictions regarding an additional third party who is not there in cars without autopilot or with autopilot off. it’s similar to how i am more stressed and tired after riding in the passenger seat with a less experienced driver at the wheel than i am at the wheel myself.
- freethought 8y ago
  I have not enabled it for this reason. I suspect that Tesla might too otherwise they would probably just let people have a 1 month free trial of autopilot so people would pony up the cash.
radium3d 8y ago
The benefit is less strain on your feet/ankles/wrists/arms/shoulders etc. Living in a high traffic area I would appreciate the time I don't have to pump my damn foot up and down every 10 seconds for hours straight while waiting in traffic.
calvinbhai 8y ago
Compare the number of autopilot crashes, to the number of crashes from cars without autopilot, driven by idiots who are busy staring at the phone screen while driving, you'll realize that autopilot type systems are probably a zillion times safer. Of course, there's zero data about how many accidents happen because drivers were staring at their phones, so you rarely see articles screaming "<non electric car> driven by an idiot staring at phone screen crashes <into what ever catches attention>". I was skeptical about Autopilot from day one, but one test drive convinced me that this may not lead to zero accidents, but it certainly is way way better than vehicles that crash when driven by distracted drivers

wpietri 8y ago

Yes. There is zero chance I'd use a system like this. Regular freeway driving is already boring enough that I worry about losing focus. (I supplement with things like caffeine and audiobooks.) There's some threshold of interventions/minute that I think humans just aren't very good at. Which is why there are systems like Threat Image Projection, which turns baggage scanning into what is effectively a video game: https://www.rapiscansystems.com/en/products/rapiscan-threat-image-projection https://www.rapiscansystems.com/en/products/rapiscan-threat-...

vsl 8y ago
Try it before making such sure if yourself statements. In my experience it’s LESS boring to drive with autopilot and I pay MORE attention to the actually important, potentially dangerous, things like what’s coming up (you’re actively aware of longer stretch forward, which also means you know you’re coming up to a stretch that autopilot won’t be able to handle well in advance and have plenty of time to disengage) and the cars around it (not watching lanes closely frees you to give all your attention to cars around you).

ohashi 8y ago

The benefit for Tesla would be selling more cars because people think they are getting a technology that isn't really ready but Tesla's claiming is (but also claiming not really, read the fine print).

abalone 8y ago
One doesn't have to be quite that cynical. Tesla's goal could genuinely be getting to Level 4/5 autonomy ASAP. My question is whether there is actually any immediate customer benefit to Level 2 autonomy that doesn't technically violate the terms of service.

gutnor 8y ago

The actual benefit is to have the car handles itself in situation where you would be distracted regardless. I engage similar system on my car before fiddling with the attention seeking touch screen, or when I need to give a quick look at the kids behind. Another is traffic jam: a lot of nothing going followed by a lot of things going on - focus on the wrong thing and you can rear end somebody. Minor benefit are some fuel saving if you are a "dynamic" driver, and it can make you more relax in stressful situation like the traffic jam above. That's just to answer your question. I completely agree with you that the feature is overhyped, not worth paying much for it and actively promoting dangerous driving behaviour. However, it nowadays comes nearly for free as a consequence of other very useful systems: the whole set of emergency braking scenario (emergency, cruise control, safety distance, pedestrian, ...), line keeping assist, blind spot monitoring. It has its uses, if you remain aware of its shortcomings.

abalone 8y ago
But don't Tesla's have Collision Avoidance Assist on by default? That's a distinct feature from autopilot. That's primarily what helps out in situations that you've noted. Autopilot basically adds autosteering to that. Seems to me that could lull you into more distracted situations that collision avoidance is unable to cope with. Note: autopilot and collision avoidance both came out around the same time, so it's far from clear that autopilot has resulted in a reduction in accident rates, or if it was mostly just the collision avoidance.
userbinator 8y ago
before fiddling with the attention seeking touch screen ...in other words, the feature partially works around some of the problems they introduced themselves by using an overly complex touchscreen UI instead of the traditional no-eyes-needed buttons and knobs.
- vsl 8y ago
  I haven’t seen a non-touchscreen media player in a new mid- to upper-range car in a long time...

userbinator 8y ago

but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? Indeed. When reading Tesla's statement, "The Palo Alto-based automaker, led by Elon Musk, has said it repeatedly warns drivers to stay alert, keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicle at all times while using the Autopilot system." ...one can't help but think, "then WTF is it good for, if I still have to drive the car myself while using it?" Supervising autopilot to the degree required to correct sudden mistakes seems, to me, to be probably very close to the mental load of the details of steering yourself. I'd say the mental load is higher than manually driving --- not unlike being a driving instructor to a student driver who is OK most of the time but occasionally makes a possibly fatal mistake that you need to watch out for and quickly correct. Normally, a car will go in a straight line with no steering input, but the autopilot almost "has a mind of its own" and can steer itself in the wrong direction. This is subtly different from cruise control, which lets you concentrate on steering and rest your foot on the brake so you can use it quickly if needed. Cruise control doesn't encourage lowering attention, but enhances it.

wooter 8y ago
The NHTSA found a 40% crash rate reduction from Tesla's autopilot. I'd say thats what its good for.
- abalone 8y ago
  This stat is widely misunderstood. Tesla rolled out Collision Avoidance Assist and Autopilot around the same time. These variables were not isolated by the NHTSA.[1] It is likely that collision avoidance was the major factor in the crash rate reduction. It is even possible that autopilot increased the accident rate. No doubt collision avoidance is a fantastic feature though. Addendum: Looks likes the NHTSA has disavowed Tesla’s interpretation of that study. They did not evaluate whether autosteer (autopilot) was engaged.[1] [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/effectiveness-of-tesla-autopilot-was-not-assessed-nhtsa.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/effectiveness-of-tesla-autop...
  - buvanshak 8y ago

TeeWEE 8y ago

Well if AutoPilot is statistically saver then a human pilot (I don't know if it is). Then that's a reason to use it.

TeeWEE 8y ago
Why does this get downvoted?

Bedon292 8y ago

The freeing of the physical part is really the benefit for me. My knees are bad, and sitting in stop and go traffic, or even long traffic lights can actually be painful. Its not bad, but it gets really annoying. Being able to physically move my leg is amazing. You probably do get a lot of that with just adaptive cruise control these days as well, but no real experience with that. The mental load is still identical, but the physical part is way more relaxed.

abalone 8y ago
Exactly: you get that benefit with adaptive cruise control. What autopilot adds is autosteer. What’s the benefit there that doesn’t violate TOS? You are supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and pay full attention just the same.
- Too 8y ago
  It moves your mind from micro to macro. Instead of focusing on balancing the car within the lane I can look 500m in front and plan further ahead. I can also spend 2 seconds with eyes off road adjusting the navigation compared to without where you can only spend maybe max 0.5sec. I also feel much fresher after a long trip, constant minor adjustments sounds minor but once you've driven with a good lane keeping aid(not the ping-pong versions) it feels so much more comfortable when the steering wheel is magnetically trying to snap to the center of the lane. It still feels like you are driving but the path of least resistance is always pulling you towards the center of the lane. This would still be considered level 2 self driving, the danger comes when you go to level 3 and really take your mind off the road, those I think should never be allowed on the road.
  - userbinator 8y ago
    It still feels like you are driving but the path of least resistance is always pulling you towards the center of the lane. ...except when it doesn't, and you're forced to suddenly comprehend the unusual situation and react before its too late: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I

ajross 8y ago

> But what is the benefit right now if you strictly follow the rule of remaining alert enough to intervene at a second's notice? You have an extra failsafe for those moments where you fail to remain alert. People keep treating these incidents in isolation and failing to account for the fact that human drivers make exactly this kind of fuckup every hour of every day, and lives are lost. Every day. You get that right? Cars. Kill. People. Every day. Tesla is shipping systems in the absolute infancy of this technology that are already statistically indistinguishable from human drivers as far as safety goes. And the luddites here want to throw all that in the garbage because of "what is the benefit right now".

dbasedweeb 8y ago
Tesla is shipping systems in the absolute infancy of this technology that are already statistically indistinguishable from human drivers as far as safety goes. That’s a hell of a claim, I’d love to see some serious citations on it.
- ajross 8y ago
  Oh, for goodness sake. Just Google "Tesla accident rate" and you'll find plenty of yammering on both sides of the argument. But read the numbers therein and you'll find that (1) they're noisy, because it's just one car model and (2) they're clearly in line with what you see with other car statistics. There are plenty of cars that have been detectable death traps. Teslas aren't among them. You're just spooked by the scary computer behind the wheel.
  - dbasedweeb 8y ago
    Filtering out the noise, you’re not willing or able to cite, and I don’t blame you, since you’d probably try to start with the discredited Tesla numbers. Then I’d post the reasons why they’re crap, and you’d grope for some more apples and oranges numbers. I like how you’ve just skipped past all of that and gone straight to the personal attacks, it saves a lot of time. Since you’ve made your claim without a hint of support, here’s my equally unsupported counter-claim: Tesla autopilot is much less safe than a human who wouldn’t accelerate into a cop car, fire truck, or gaurd rail unless dead, or drunk.

nikofeyn 8y ago

> Supervising autopilot to the degree required to correct sudden mistakes seems, to me, to be probably very close to the mental load of the details of steering yourself. intuitively, the load seems higher. this is because your brain must now include predictions regarding an additional third party who is not there in cars without autopilot or with autopilot off. it’s similar to how i am more stressed and tired after riding in the passenger seat with a less experienced driver at the wheel than i am at the wheel myself.

freethought 8y ago
I have not enabled it for this reason. I suspect that Tesla might too otherwise they would probably just let people have a 1 month free trial of autopilot so people would pony up the cash.

radium3d 8y ago

The benefit is less strain on your feet/ankles/wrists/arms/shoulders etc. Living in a high traffic area I would appreciate the time I don't have to pump my damn foot up and down every 10 seconds for hours straight while waiting in traffic.

calvinbhai 8y ago

Compare the number of autopilot crashes, to the number of crashes from cars without autopilot, driven by idiots who are busy staring at the phone screen while driving, you'll realize that autopilot type systems are probably a zillion times safer. Of course, there's zero data about how many accidents happen because drivers were staring at their phones, so you rarely see articles screaming "<non electric car> driven by an idiot staring at phone screen crashes <into what ever catches attention>". I was skeptical about Autopilot from day one, but one test drive convinced me that this may not lead to zero accidents, but it certainly is way way better than vehicles that crash when driven by distracted drivers