6 ms·

I don't necessarily hate all GMO but I'm very dubious about GMO crops that are engineered to withstand Glyphosate better and I prefer not to eat such crops beca

by sersi 8y ago

I don't necessarily hate all GMO but I'm very dubious about GMO crops that are engineered to withstand Glyphosate better and I prefer not to eat such crops because they are more likely to have been treated with this herbicide.

daveFNbuck 8y ago
Why do you have that preference? It's my understanding that the alternatives are worse.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  Organic food is worse than food wich was treated with various chemicals to kill living things? Thats news to me. But you probably mean "alternatives" for producing dirt cheap. Then yes, there are much worse substances around. Doesn't make it good, though.
  - driverdan 8y ago
    Organic food is treated with pesticides and herbicides too. There's a limited list of allowed chemicals, some of which are much worse than glycophosphate.
    - barrkel 8y ago
      To be sure we're all on the same page, there are differences in organic regulation in the US vs the EU. I don't know much about the US situation, but an outline of EU general regulations for organic plants is https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-on-production/plants-and-plant-products_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-... : > Basic substances allowed in organic agriculture comply with two criteria: i) they are of vegetable or animal origin ii) they are considered to be "foodstuff"
      - icebraining 8y ago
        That's not true, though, there are authorized exceptions, like copper. See Annex II, table 3: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3AOJ.L_.2016.116.01.0008.01.ENG https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=uriserv%...
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    No, I mean that the chemicals used in organic farming to kill living things are more harmful to humans than glyphosate is.
    - hutzlibu 8y ago
      The (small) organic farmers I know dont use pesticides at all. And as far as I know, here in europe they would not be allowed to use anything realy toxic, when they want to have the organic label. So things are different in the US then? Or also for europe? sources please.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > The (small) organic farmers I know dont use pesticides at all. They aren't representative of the bulk of organic food production. Overall, organic food production is, like non-organic food production, dominated by large, industrial agriculture concerns that do use pesticides.
      - sampo 8y ago
        Here's a list of 12 chemicals approved for use in organic farming: https://risk-monger.com/2016/04/13/the-risk-mongers-dirty-dozen-12-highly-toxic-pesticides-approved-for-use-in-organic-farming/ https://risk-monger.com/2016/04/13/the-risk-mongers-dirty-do...
        barrkel 8y ago
        That site believes organic farming is a hoax. It also also seems to be mixing up data about US regulation and UK opinion (and thus EU regulation). An intro to EU regulation for organic plant farming is https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-on-production/plants-and-plant-products_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-...
  - nwallin 8y ago
    Organic food IS food which is treated with various chemicals to kill living things. But the list of various chemicals are arbitrarily defined as "natural", putting them in the same list as other safe, natural chemicals like ricin, botulinum, strychnine, arsenic... "Organic" is a marketing term, not a descriptor of the production process.
    - commandar 8y ago
      >"Organic" is a marketing term, not a descriptor of the production process. I generally agree with this, but with the caveat that tomatoes are an exception as I understand it. It's nothing to do with being GMO or pesticides used, but rather the fact that conventionally grown tomatoes are generally harvested significantly pre-ripening, and then gassed with ethylene to promote them turning red. My understanding -- and if I'm wrong about this someone please do chime in -- is that ethylene gassing isn't acceptable for tomatoes that are labeled organic (but is for some "organic" fruits like bananas). It's possible it's all placebo, but tomatoes are the one fruit/vegetable I tend toward actually using organic as result.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Organic food is worse than food wich was treated with various chemicals to kill living things? Organic food is, itself, generally food which is treated with various chemicals to kill living things. The choice of chemicals involved, and the choice of actual food crop, is limited by concerns that are chosen on bases which are not well adapted to either maximizing safety of the food or minimizing environmental impact of the food growing process.
bumblebritches5 8y ago
THIS. GMO's are generally fine, the problem is that basically all of the GMO's you find aren't engineered to repel pests themselves, they're just engineered to withstand pesticides, which encourages their use. The problem with using even more pesticides is that obviously they could be on the surface of the food we eat, and who knows how hard they are to get off. that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario, is that the pesticides are taken up by the plant itself, meaning it's composed of those pesticides, which you then consume, and they do who knows what...
empthought 8y ago
Why? Are you a dicotyledon that relies on the shikimic acid pathway to synthesize folates?
- whatshisface 8y ago
  The parent is probably a very complex system with too many pathways involved in their life to be confident that none of them will get involved in a side-reaction. I'm not a surface impurity on a roll of sheet metal but that doesn't mean I'll stick my hand into a steel pickling vat.
  - empthought 8y ago
    That’s just as legitimate an argument for eating nothing at all, though.
sampo 8y ago
Actually, they use just as much glyphosate when growing wheat (not GMO) as when growing corn (maybe 80% is GMO) in the US. USA corn production 333 000 000 tons glyphosate use 69 000 000 lb wheat production 58 000 000 tons glyphosate use 17 000 000 lb https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044953/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044953/ (Table 3)
randomdata 8y ago
Farmer here: We apply glyphosate to both GMO (roundup ready) and non-GMO crops. The big difference is when: The roundup ready crops can have it applied early in the growing season. The non-GMO crops have to wait until just before harvest, when you don't care, or even prefer, that the crop dies.
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  What's the benefit to apply glyphosate just before harvest. Hasn't all the growing already been done? Is it to avoid bringing in bugs with the harvest?
  - randomdata 8y ago
    Weed control for future crops and/or desiccation.
  - Cogito 8y ago
    Some farmers with apply roundup just before harvest in order to desiccate the plant. This makes harvesting much simpler and cheaper, as you don't have to wait for the plants to dry naturally, or deal with moisture rich plants after harvest.

by sersi 8y ago

daveFNbuck 8y ago

Why do you have that preference? It's my understanding that the alternatives are worse.

hutzlibu 8y ago
Organic food is worse than food wich was treated with various chemicals to kill living things? Thats news to me. But you probably mean "alternatives" for producing dirt cheap. Then yes, there are much worse substances around. Doesn't make it good, though.
- driverdan 8y ago
  Organic food is treated with pesticides and herbicides too. There's a limited list of allowed chemicals, some of which are much worse than glycophosphate.
  - barrkel 8y ago
    To be sure we're all on the same page, there are differences in organic regulation in the US vs the EU. I don't know much about the US situation, but an outline of EU general regulations for organic plants is https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-on-production/plants-and-plant-products_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-... : > Basic substances allowed in organic agriculture comply with two criteria: i) they are of vegetable or animal origin ii) they are considered to be "foodstuff"
    - icebraining 8y ago
      That's not true, though, there are authorized exceptions, like copper. See Annex II, table 3: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3AOJ.L_.2016.116.01.0008.01.ENG https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=uriserv%...
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  No, I mean that the chemicals used in organic farming to kill living things are more harmful to humans than glyphosate is.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    The (small) organic farmers I know dont use pesticides at all. And as far as I know, here in europe they would not be allowed to use anything realy toxic, when they want to have the organic label. So things are different in the US then? Or also for europe? sources please.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > The (small) organic farmers I know dont use pesticides at all. They aren't representative of the bulk of organic food production. Overall, organic food production is, like non-organic food production, dominated by large, industrial agriculture concerns that do use pesticides.
    - sampo 8y ago
      Here's a list of 12 chemicals approved for use in organic farming: https://risk-monger.com/2016/04/13/the-risk-mongers-dirty-dozen-12-highly-toxic-pesticides-approved-for-use-in-organic-farming/ https://risk-monger.com/2016/04/13/the-risk-mongers-dirty-do...
      - barrkel 8y ago
        That site believes organic farming is a hoax. It also also seems to be mixing up data about US regulation and UK opinion (and thus EU regulation). An intro to EU regulation for organic plant farming is https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-on-production/plants-and-plant-products_en https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/organic/eu-policy/eu-rules-...
- nwallin 8y ago
  Organic food IS food which is treated with various chemicals to kill living things. But the list of various chemicals are arbitrarily defined as "natural", putting them in the same list as other safe, natural chemicals like ricin, botulinum, strychnine, arsenic... "Organic" is a marketing term, not a descriptor of the production process.
  - commandar 8y ago
    >"Organic" is a marketing term, not a descriptor of the production process. I generally agree with this, but with the caveat that tomatoes are an exception as I understand it. It's nothing to do with being GMO or pesticides used, but rather the fact that conventionally grown tomatoes are generally harvested significantly pre-ripening, and then gassed with ethylene to promote them turning red. My understanding -- and if I'm wrong about this someone please do chime in -- is that ethylene gassing isn't acceptable for tomatoes that are labeled organic (but is for some "organic" fruits like bananas). It's possible it's all placebo, but tomatoes are the one fruit/vegetable I tend toward actually using organic as result.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Organic food is worse than food wich was treated with various chemicals to kill living things? Organic food is, itself, generally food which is treated with various chemicals to kill living things. The choice of chemicals involved, and the choice of actual food crop, is limited by concerns that are chosen on bases which are not well adapted to either maximizing safety of the food or minimizing environmental impact of the food growing process.

bumblebritches5 8y ago

THIS. GMO's are generally fine, the problem is that basically all of the GMO's you find aren't engineered to repel pests themselves, they're just engineered to withstand pesticides, which encourages their use. The problem with using even more pesticides is that obviously they could be on the surface of the food we eat, and who knows how hard they are to get off. that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario, is that the pesticides are taken up by the plant itself, meaning it's composed of those pesticides, which you then consume, and they do who knows what...

empthought 8y ago

Why? Are you a dicotyledon that relies on the shikimic acid pathway to synthesize folates?

whatshisface 8y ago
The parent is probably a very complex system with too many pathways involved in their life to be confident that none of them will get involved in a side-reaction. I'm not a surface impurity on a roll of sheet metal but that doesn't mean I'll stick my hand into a steel pickling vat.
- empthought 8y ago
  That’s just as legitimate an argument for eating nothing at all, though.

sampo 8y ago

Actually, they use just as much glyphosate when growing wheat (not GMO) as when growing corn (maybe 80% is GMO) in the US. USA corn production 333 000 000 tons glyphosate use 69 000 000 lb wheat production 58 000 000 tons glyphosate use 17 000 000 lb https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044953/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044953/ (Table 3)

randomdata 8y ago

Farmer here: We apply glyphosate to both GMO (roundup ready) and non-GMO crops. The big difference is when: The roundup ready crops can have it applied early in the growing season. The non-GMO crops have to wait until just before harvest, when you don't care, or even prefer, that the crop dies.

BurningFrog 8y ago
What's the benefit to apply glyphosate just before harvest. Hasn't all the growing already been done? Is it to avoid bringing in bugs with the harvest?
- randomdata 8y ago
  Weed control for future crops and/or desiccation.
- Cogito 8y ago
  Some farmers with apply roundup just before harvest in order to desiccate the plant. This makes harvesting much simpler and cheaper, as you don't have to wait for the plants to dry naturally, or deal with moisture rich plants after harvest.