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I don't follow it super closely but there is exactly 1 car manufacture that I can think of guilty of pushing the self driving myth. The established car makers s

I don't follow it super closely but there is exactly 1 car manufacture that I can think of guilty of pushing the self driving myth. The established car makers seem to market it as an assist, not as an autopilot. Tesla is the outlier, everyone else is much more conservative.

hndamien 8y ago
Auto pilot != Self driving. People love to conflate these two so much that the people saying it rely on everybody else conflating it to justify their ignorance. This is just like Fox "some people say" - Fox people say! Or Javascript Bitcoin miners - Monero is not Bitcoin! It's snowing so there is no global warming - It is "climate change" but the entire globe is warming! This hurricane is just weather, not climate change - it is the 10th 1 in 500 year hurricane we have had this month! I could go on. Sure, talking about the future self driving features (and selling them) is poor form to avoid this from Tesla, so they aren't helping - but they have always been clear that it is not self driving. It is the listeners/ readers that are incorrectly connecting the dots.
- jonknee 8y ago
  Well then maybe they shouldn't call it auto pilot? I mean, how dumb of a name could they have chosen if they didn't want people to think the car can drive itself? They should also retrain their sales staff because on my test drive the saleswoman specifically told me the car could drive itself and that I should take my hands off the wheel to test it out. They should also retrain their CEO who keeps talking about "self driving" in reference to existing cars: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... > "All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware"
  - hndamien 8y ago
    Have full self driving hardware != full self driving software != full self driving capabilities. Auto pilot - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot "An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircraft. This allows them to focus on broader aspects of operations such as monitoring the trajectory, weather and systems.[1]" You are doing the exact conflating I am referring to.
    - jonknee 8y ago
      Tesla sells a car that everyone from the sales people to the CEO says can drive itself, has a feature called Autopilot where the car drives itself and you're saying no one should be confused that the car can't drive itself... Regardless, the actual people who have gotten into an accident because of this should be proof enough that Tesla is misleading people.
      - hndamien 8y ago
        Those accidents and these comments and downvotes are a greater proof that people like to mislead themselves. You must have missed the definition of autopilot in my comment.
        Someone1234 8y ago
        I thought the car crashing into the parked police car, a parked fire engine, decapitated, and driving straight into a road divider at full speed were better proof that people are mislead by the term "autopilot." Tesla likes to play both sides, it is "autopilot" when it works, but when it doesn't then the driver has literally under six seconds (according to Tesla) to avert a fatal accident.
        hndamien 8y ago
        No, it is always autopilot, you must pay attention and it never is or has been fully self driving.
        Someone1234 8y ago
        Honestly the whole system is in the "uncanny valley." It is just effective enough to leave people with a false sense of security but just buggy enough to continue to kill people. Any system that randomly needs a massive correction in under six seconds between potentially several minutes of inaction is too dangerous to be used on public roads. I didn't sign Tesla's little disclaimer, I shouldn't have to share roads with people beta testing dangerous software.
- abdelm 8y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/autopilot/ https://www.tesla.com/autopilot/ -> big text saying "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars" + video showcasing said capability. You have to go way down to "Enhanced Autopilot" section to read the smaller text that mentions that its subject to regulatory approval, and that the driver is responsible. If you don't think that's misleading advertising, I don't know what is.
  - annerajb 8y ago
    In the purchase section it clearly breaks the capability out including which ones are active/ enabled. In addition on the car manual and UI at enabling also spells it out. It says keep your hands on the wheel and paying attention to pick over immediately.
    - ams6110 8y ago
      People don't read manuals. People don't read instructions in the UI. That is well-established reality. People glance at a web page or ad and see the words "full self-driving" and that's what sets their expectations.
      - hndamien 8y ago
        They don't apparently read pop-ups prior to driving, ends of sentences ("full self driving capable hardware"), definitions of words, hacker news comments, listen to audible warnings to keep hands on the steering wheel. At what point does a person become responsible for their own actions?
        yellow_postit 8y ago
        Rephrased: at what point should Tesla remove this ambiguity from their marketing materials?
        hndamien 8y ago
        Depends on the ambiguity. I would agree that they should remove the video unless they put a giant disclaimer on it right now.
- imh 8y ago
  Those things are nothing alike. Some are facts that can be checked, others are definitions. If people all agree that the sun won't come up tomorrow, it's still coming up. If people all agree to start using a word in a new way, then it's time to change the dictionary.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    So we should just start calling Monero Bitcoin because many people are consistently wrong?
    - imh 8y ago
      It's the difference between Tesla's capital A "Autopilot" product and the english word lower case a "autopilot." The language doesn't define Autopilot, but it does define autopilot, like it doesn't define Monero. If I had a product that I called Meat and it wasn't meat, I don't get to say "well the word 'meat' originally just meant solid food," when my customers complain I misled them.
    - Sylos 8y ago
      No, we shouldn't. But a company that advertises software against JavaScript-Bitcoin-miners knows exactly that people will think their software helps against JavaScript-Monero-miners. If it's a reasonable company, they'll try to deal with this public misunderstanding and point out that their software can't help with Monero-miners. If it's an asshole company, they'll cash in on people mistakenly buying their software. And even worse, those people will then think they're safe when they're not. Such an asshole company deserves all of the negative PR, so that they're hopefully at some point forced to change their business practices.
      - hndamien 8y ago
        There are no javascript Bitcoin miners, people just think they exist. I mean technically it is possible, but it would be very pointless. People just lump all crypto together because of ignorance. As is the case here. Autopilot is not fully self-driving.
- jellicle 8y ago
  > People love to conflate Those people being Tesla's marketing team, presumably. > they have always been clear that it is not self driving That is very far away from the truth.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    Based on all of your citations for evidence which should be numerous since it is by definition information delivered to the public.
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  You're like Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty > what I say is always what I mean, and if you misunderstand, it's your fault. Linguistic pragmatics 101: communication is a two way street.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    So Wikipedia's consensus that I linked to is wrong?
    - dang 8y ago
      You've unfortunately contributed the most to this flamewar. We don't want those here. Please stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - freethought 8y ago
        It is unfortunate that they were name called “smug pedant”.
        dang 8y ago
        Yes, but not relevant to the main point, which is that users need not to proliferate high-quantity-low-quality controversies (a.k.a. flamewars) on this site. (If we saw a commenter calling another a smug pedant, of course we'd tell them not to. I didn't see it though.)
      - hndamien 8y ago
        Thank you. I didn't take any offense to Humpty Dumpty, I understand his point. I'm more surprised that somebody calling me a "smug pedant" led to me being banned for what seems a simple point, Tesla never said their car was fully self driving, and went to fairly great lengths to explain and notify that it isn't. (sans the video which I agree implies a lot too much).
        8y ago
jgibson 8y ago
I think there is more than one. This Audi ad from 2016 shows it driving around with no hands on wheel. They don't get as much press as Tesla, and I don't know how good their system is, but it sure does make a bold implication (although their choice of the "Piloted Driving" name is probably a much safer choice than Teslas. https://youtu.be/I2j2-DqcPfM https://youtu.be/I2j2-DqcPfM
- zrobotics 8y ago
  Is it though? Piloted means human controlled, often by a highly trained professional. I agree that auto pilot is a confusing term, but in an aircraft auto pilot systems are actually more primitive than Tesla's offering. To me, it just sounds like a cheesy way to mimic the name people are familiar with for self-driving features without infringing trademark. Because taken literally, it suggests a more capable system than auto pilot does.
  - JackCh 8y ago
    > "but in an aircraft auto pilot systems are actually more primitive than Tesla's offering." I contend that while that's true, it's not something your typical consumer is aware of. There is a common misconception that modern airline pilots simply press a button then kick back as the plane takes off, flies and land itself.
- jonknee 8y ago
  Well do you think a T. rex is going to be able to drive? If you visit the website [1] the large header text says: > Audi development engineer Thomas Müller and his team sent “Lu Ban” and “Kong Ming”, two piloted Audi A7 Sportback prototypes, on a very special kind of test drive. This is a very far cry from what Tesla and Musk are doing. For starters you can't even buy the car yet. If you look for information on "Audi Piloted Driving" [2] you can see they're just as cautious as you'd imagine a German company to be: > In 2017 Audi will introduce what’s expected to the world’s first to-market Level 3 automated driving system with “Traffic Jam Pilot” in the next generation Audi A8. The system will give drivers the option to travel hands-free up to 35 mph, when certain conditions are met prior to enabling this feature — for instance, the vehicle will ensure it is on a limited-access, divided highway. Note that it will only work on highways, but also only at non-highway speeds. Stop and go traffic. > In 2020-2021, Audi will introduce a Level 4 “Highway Pilot” feature—technology similar to what has been demonstrated in our concept vehicle “Jack”—that offers hands-free driving at posted limited access highway speeds in which the vehicle can execute lane changes and pass cars independently. Seems pretty cautious to me. [1] https://www.audi.com/en/innovation/piloteddriving/piloted_driving.html https://www.audi.com/en/innovation/piloteddriving/piloted_dr... [2] http://media.audiusa.com/models/piloted-driving http://media.audiusa.com/models/piloted-driving
vsl 8y ago
Well, no. Mercedes had to pull Drive Pilot (notice the name...) ads that actually claimed, unlike Tesla, to be self-driving... about a system significantly underperforming Tesla’s. Tesla is outlier mostly in the disproportionate amount of flak it takes. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160801/RETAIL03/308019956/m-b-pulls-drive-pilot-ad-after-complaint http://www.autonews.com/article/20160801/RETAIL03/308019956/...

hndamien 8y ago

Auto pilot != Self driving. People love to conflate these two so much that the people saying it rely on everybody else conflating it to justify their ignorance. This is just like Fox "some people say" - Fox people say! Or Javascript Bitcoin miners - Monero is not Bitcoin! It's snowing so there is no global warming - It is "climate change" but the entire globe is warming! This hurricane is just weather, not climate change - it is the 10th 1 in 500 year hurricane we have had this month! I could go on. Sure, talking about the future self driving features (and selling them) is poor form to avoid this from Tesla, so they aren't helping - but they have always been clear that it is not self driving. It is the listeners/ readers that are incorrectly connecting the dots.

jonknee 8y ago
Well then maybe they shouldn't call it auto pilot? I mean, how dumb of a name could they have chosen if they didn't want people to think the car can drive itself? They should also retrain their sales staff because on my test drive the saleswoman specifically told me the car could drive itself and that I should take my hands off the wheel to test it out. They should also retrain their CEO who keeps talking about "self driving" in reference to existing cars: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... > "All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware"
- hndamien 8y ago
  Have full self driving hardware != full self driving software != full self driving capabilities. Auto pilot - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot "An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircraft. This allows them to focus on broader aspects of operations such as monitoring the trajectory, weather and systems.[1]" You are doing the exact conflating I am referring to.
  - jonknee 8y ago
    Tesla sells a car that everyone from the sales people to the CEO says can drive itself, has a feature called Autopilot where the car drives itself and you're saying no one should be confused that the car can't drive itself... Regardless, the actual people who have gotten into an accident because of this should be proof enough that Tesla is misleading people.
    - hndamien 8y ago
      Those accidents and these comments and downvotes are a greater proof that people like to mislead themselves. You must have missed the definition of autopilot in my comment.
      - Someone1234 8y ago
        I thought the car crashing into the parked police car, a parked fire engine, decapitated, and driving straight into a road divider at full speed were better proof that people are mislead by the term "autopilot." Tesla likes to play both sides, it is "autopilot" when it works, but when it doesn't then the driver has literally under six seconds (according to Tesla) to avert a fatal accident.
        hndamien 8y ago
        No, it is always autopilot, you must pay attention and it never is or has been fully self driving.
        Someone1234 8y ago
        Honestly the whole system is in the "uncanny valley." It is just effective enough to leave people with a false sense of security but just buggy enough to continue to kill people. Any system that randomly needs a massive correction in under six seconds between potentially several minutes of inaction is too dangerous to be used on public roads. I didn't sign Tesla's little disclaimer, I shouldn't have to share roads with people beta testing dangerous software.
abdelm 8y ago
https://www.tesla.com/autopilot/ https://www.tesla.com/autopilot/ -> big text saying "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars" + video showcasing said capability. You have to go way down to "Enhanced Autopilot" section to read the smaller text that mentions that its subject to regulatory approval, and that the driver is responsible. If you don't think that's misleading advertising, I don't know what is.
- annerajb 8y ago
  In the purchase section it clearly breaks the capability out including which ones are active/ enabled. In addition on the car manual and UI at enabling also spells it out. It says keep your hands on the wheel and paying attention to pick over immediately.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    People don't read manuals. People don't read instructions in the UI. That is well-established reality. People glance at a web page or ad and see the words "full self-driving" and that's what sets their expectations.
    - hndamien 8y ago
      They don't apparently read pop-ups prior to driving, ends of sentences ("full self driving capable hardware"), definitions of words, hacker news comments, listen to audible warnings to keep hands on the steering wheel. At what point does a person become responsible for their own actions?
      - yellow_postit 8y ago
        Rephrased: at what point should Tesla remove this ambiguity from their marketing materials?
        hndamien 8y ago
        Depends on the ambiguity. I would agree that they should remove the video unless they put a giant disclaimer on it right now.
imh 8y ago
Those things are nothing alike. Some are facts that can be checked, others are definitions. If people all agree that the sun won't come up tomorrow, it's still coming up. If people all agree to start using a word in a new way, then it's time to change the dictionary.
- hndamien 8y ago
  So we should just start calling Monero Bitcoin because many people are consistently wrong?
  - imh 8y ago
    It's the difference between Tesla's capital A "Autopilot" product and the english word lower case a "autopilot." The language doesn't define Autopilot, but it does define autopilot, like it doesn't define Monero. If I had a product that I called Meat and it wasn't meat, I don't get to say "well the word 'meat' originally just meant solid food," when my customers complain I misled them.
  - Sylos 8y ago
    No, we shouldn't. But a company that advertises software against JavaScript-Bitcoin-miners knows exactly that people will think their software helps against JavaScript-Monero-miners. If it's a reasonable company, they'll try to deal with this public misunderstanding and point out that their software can't help with Monero-miners. If it's an asshole company, they'll cash in on people mistakenly buying their software. And even worse, those people will then think they're safe when they're not. Such an asshole company deserves all of the negative PR, so that they're hopefully at some point forced to change their business practices.
    - hndamien 8y ago
      There are no javascript Bitcoin miners, people just think they exist. I mean technically it is possible, but it would be very pointless. People just lump all crypto together because of ignorance. As is the case here. Autopilot is not fully self-driving.
jellicle 8y ago
> People love to conflate Those people being Tesla's marketing team, presumably. > they have always been clear that it is not self driving That is very far away from the truth.
- hndamien 8y ago
  Based on all of your citations for evidence which should be numerous since it is by definition information delivered to the public.
hannasanarion 8y ago
You're like Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty > what I say is always what I mean, and if you misunderstand, it's your fault. Linguistic pragmatics 101: communication is a two way street.
- hndamien 8y ago
  So Wikipedia's consensus that I linked to is wrong?
  - dang 8y ago
    You've unfortunately contributed the most to this flamewar. We don't want those here. Please stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - freethought 8y ago
      It is unfortunate that they were name called “smug pedant”.
      - dang 8y ago
        Yes, but not relevant to the main point, which is that users need not to proliferate high-quantity-low-quality controversies (a.k.a. flamewars) on this site. (If we saw a commenter calling another a smug pedant, of course we'd tell them not to. I didn't see it though.)
    - hndamien 8y ago
      Thank you. I didn't take any offense to Humpty Dumpty, I understand his point. I'm more surprised that somebody calling me a "smug pedant" led to me being banned for what seems a simple point, Tesla never said their car was fully self driving, and went to fairly great lengths to explain and notify that it isn't. (sans the video which I agree implies a lot too much).
      - 8y ago

jgibson 8y ago

I think there is more than one. This Audi ad from 2016 shows it driving around with no hands on wheel. They don't get as much press as Tesla, and I don't know how good their system is, but it sure does make a bold implication (although their choice of the "Piloted Driving" name is probably a much safer choice than Teslas. https://youtu.be/I2j2-DqcPfM https://youtu.be/I2j2-DqcPfM

zrobotics 8y ago
Is it though? Piloted means human controlled, often by a highly trained professional. I agree that auto pilot is a confusing term, but in an aircraft auto pilot systems are actually more primitive than Tesla's offering. To me, it just sounds like a cheesy way to mimic the name people are familiar with for self-driving features without infringing trademark. Because taken literally, it suggests a more capable system than auto pilot does.
- JackCh 8y ago
  > "but in an aircraft auto pilot systems are actually more primitive than Tesla's offering." I contend that while that's true, it's not something your typical consumer is aware of. There is a common misconception that modern airline pilots simply press a button then kick back as the plane takes off, flies and land itself.
jonknee 8y ago
Well do you think a T. rex is going to be able to drive? If you visit the website [1] the large header text says: > Audi development engineer Thomas Müller and his team sent “Lu Ban” and “Kong Ming”, two piloted Audi A7 Sportback prototypes, on a very special kind of test drive. This is a very far cry from what Tesla and Musk are doing. For starters you can't even buy the car yet. If you look for information on "Audi Piloted Driving" [2] you can see they're just as cautious as you'd imagine a German company to be: > In 2017 Audi will introduce what’s expected to the world’s first to-market Level 3 automated driving system with “Traffic Jam Pilot” in the next generation Audi A8. The system will give drivers the option to travel hands-free up to 35 mph, when certain conditions are met prior to enabling this feature — for instance, the vehicle will ensure it is on a limited-access, divided highway. Note that it will only work on highways, but also only at non-highway speeds. Stop and go traffic. > In 2020-2021, Audi will introduce a Level 4 “Highway Pilot” feature—technology similar to what has been demonstrated in our concept vehicle “Jack”—that offers hands-free driving at posted limited access highway speeds in which the vehicle can execute lane changes and pass cars independently. Seems pretty cautious to me. [1] https://www.audi.com/en/innovation/piloteddriving/piloted_driving.html https://www.audi.com/en/innovation/piloteddriving/piloted_dr... [2] http://media.audiusa.com/models/piloted-driving http://media.audiusa.com/models/piloted-driving

vsl 8y ago

Well, no. Mercedes had to pull Drive Pilot (notice the name...) ads that actually claimed, unlike Tesla, to be self-driving... about a system significantly underperforming Tesla’s. Tesla is outlier mostly in the disproportionate amount of flak it takes. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160801/RETAIL03/308019956/m-b-pulls-drive-pilot-ad-after-complaint http://www.autonews.com/article/20160801/RETAIL03/308019956/...