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"Vietnamese students with a fraction of the educational budget" I agree with you that pouring more money doesn't mean thing will get better, but costs are diff

by itg 16y ago

"Vietnamese students with a fraction of the educational budget" I agree with you that pouring more money doesn't mean thing will get better, but costs are different for people living in America vs Vietnam. This is an unfair and dishonest comparison.

Alex3917 16y ago
The thing is though that in the U.S. the research has shown that increased spending doesn't mean improved outcomes, whereas in other countries this isn't necessarily true. I'm all for improving outcomes in schooling, but if you want to do that by putting money into it then you have to do so in a country where more money buys better outcomes, and that isn't the case here.
- htsh 16y ago
  Curious to see this research. Are you arguing that there's no correlation between school budgets and outcomes?
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    Grab a copy of Equality and Achievement by Riordan. It's the best introduction to education research there is. The cites on financial issues are in the chapter on between school effects.
    - htsh 16y ago
      Cool, will check it out. And how unanimous are these views amongst sociologists? I'd imagine there is disagreement on the subject?
      - Alex3917 16y ago
        "And how unanimous are these views amongst sociologists? I'd imagine there is disagreement on the subject?" As far as I know there isn't much disagreement about the fact that school funding doesn't correlate well with outcomes, but there is obviously a lot of disagreement about how to translate this into actual reforms. In terms of assessing the validity of the original research though, I get the feeling that in this case the answers you get are much more determined by the questions you're asking rather than by the methodology of the studies. Unlike, say, when you are trying to understand how the results of surveys on self-reported drug use correlate with actual drug use, and you need to read a 594 page PDF worth of research before you're able to say anything intelligent.[1] (Which I read last night for fun, which is why I know this.) [1] http://archives.drugabuse.gov/pdf/monographs/Monograph167/Monograph167.pdf http://archives.drugabuse.gov/pdf/monographs/Monograph167/Mo...
- Retric 16y ago
  Under the current system, the worst students cost far more to educate than the best students. Because of this you can slice the numbers to say everything from money is harmful, meaningless, or beneficial. The simple truth is in education resources matter but like all things there are significant diminishing returns after a while.
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    "Under the current system, the worst students cost far more to educate than the best students." This is an excellent argument against the current system. The reason why the worst students cost more to educate using the Gary Plan is largely because of expensive pull-outs, which isn't a problem under, say, Open Systems Instruction.[1] Under the current system they actually talk about Total Adjusted Pupil Units rather than students, which shows just how pervasive the problem is. [1] C.f. Public Schools Should Learn to Ski
    - Retric 16y ago
      The ROI from educating poor students is actually fairly high. The cost gap between someone at minimum wage vs. welfare vs. prison is huge. It's generally speaking much easier and more cost effective to avoid a single teen pregnancy that to fund enrichment programs.

by itg 16y ago

Alex3917 16y ago

The thing is though that in the U.S. the research has shown that increased spending doesn't mean improved outcomes, whereas in other countries this isn't necessarily true. I'm all for improving outcomes in schooling, but if you want to do that by putting money into it then you have to do so in a country where more money buys better outcomes, and that isn't the case here.

htsh 16y ago
Curious to see this research. Are you arguing that there's no correlation between school budgets and outcomes?
- Alex3917 16y ago
  Grab a copy of Equality and Achievement by Riordan. It's the best introduction to education research there is. The cites on financial issues are in the chapter on between school effects.
  - htsh 16y ago
    Cool, will check it out. And how unanimous are these views amongst sociologists? I'd imagine there is disagreement on the subject?
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      "And how unanimous are these views amongst sociologists? I'd imagine there is disagreement on the subject?" As far as I know there isn't much disagreement about the fact that school funding doesn't correlate well with outcomes, but there is obviously a lot of disagreement about how to translate this into actual reforms. In terms of assessing the validity of the original research though, I get the feeling that in this case the answers you get are much more determined by the questions you're asking rather than by the methodology of the studies. Unlike, say, when you are trying to understand how the results of surveys on self-reported drug use correlate with actual drug use, and you need to read a 594 page PDF worth of research before you're able to say anything intelligent.[1] (Which I read last night for fun, which is why I know this.) [1] http://archives.drugabuse.gov/pdf/monographs/Monograph167/Monograph167.pdf http://archives.drugabuse.gov/pdf/monographs/Monograph167/Mo...
Retric 16y ago
Under the current system, the worst students cost far more to educate than the best students. Because of this you can slice the numbers to say everything from money is harmful, meaningless, or beneficial. The simple truth is in education resources matter but like all things there are significant diminishing returns after a while.
- Alex3917 16y ago
  "Under the current system, the worst students cost far more to educate than the best students." This is an excellent argument against the current system. The reason why the worst students cost more to educate using the Gary Plan is largely because of expensive pull-outs, which isn't a problem under, say, Open Systems Instruction.[1] Under the current system they actually talk about Total Adjusted Pupil Units rather than students, which shows just how pervasive the problem is. [1] C.f. Public Schools Should Learn to Ski
  - Retric 16y ago
    The ROI from educating poor students is actually fairly high. The cost gap between someone at minimum wage vs. welfare vs. prison is huge. It's generally speaking much easier and more cost effective to avoid a single teen pregnancy that to fund enrichment programs.