4 ms·

No one forgets that. Everyone just thinks we should solve the chicken-and-egg problem and move that prestige to a set of journals that don't gouge everyone for

No one forgets that. Everyone just thinks we should solve the chicken-and-egg problem and move that prestige to a set of journals that don't gouge everyone for research that was mostly paid for by public money already and was peer-reviewed by public employees volunteering.

baxtr 8y ago
Well, then you have to come up with a good idea how to change the nature of humans. We thrive on fame as social status currency Not just in science. The equivalent in startups might be a famous VC or whatever. It’s about attaching yourself to a brand.
- aeorgnoieang 8y ago
  The problem (in this case) isn't "social status currency". It's that the social status currency system has real (financial) costs too! The value of a prestige journal brand is that it is (supposedly) selective in which papers it publishes; not that it costs a lot of money for people to read those papers.
- Barrin92 8y ago
  this has nothing to do with some mystical 'nature of humans', we're just stuck in a bad nash equilibrium. Journals thrive on reputation and nobody can individually dissent because they lose out. This is the same mechanism that keeps overpriced tuition fees at ivy league colleges afloat. The answer is to collectively get out by legislating the practice or offering a free public alternative that everybody can immediately jump too. Given that the efforts become more and more organised, (German wholesale boycott of Elsevier) this might be happening sooner than later.
  - nunya213 8y ago
    But Arxiv has been around for years and the Journals haven't died yet.
    - Barrin92 8y ago
      Just offering a superior platform is not enough, as said in the last post, you also must create a way to collectively move everybody over and break the feedback loop of prestige journals. The same happens with social networks. You could offer the freest, most privacy respecting network of all, as long as individuals get punished for leaving the old one individually it'll never take over a significant amount of market share, even if everyone on the old network agrees that the newer one is better.
      - baxtr 8y ago
        Everybody would agree on this - in theory. But you don’t say how this should happen, and this is where it breaks down. The only thing that comes to mind is “magic”...
        jdietrich 8y ago
        ... which is exactly our problem. Everyone (bar the publishers) hates the status quo, but nobody knows how to break it. My personal hope is that sci-hub will gradually erode the profitability of scientific publishing down to nothing, but breaking the stranglehold of publishers will almost certainly be a long and painful process. http://honisoit.com/2015/11/the-dictatorship-with-no-dictator/ http://honisoit.com/2015/11/the-dictatorship-with-no-dictato...
        stale2002 8y ago
        Well, there are a couple ways it could happen. 1. The governmemt could require you to publish all your research in an open way, if it ever funded anything to do with your research. No open access, no government money. 2. Universities could band together and do something about it. This could happen both on the demand side, AND on the supply sude. For example, they could either collectively refuse to pay for journals, OR collectively refuse to hire professors who don't publish open access. Want to get Tenure? Well you are forced to publish open access. Don't like it? Then go find a different University to work for. But that might be difficult if those OTHER universies collude against you with the same rules.
      - 8y ago
ggg9990 8y ago
Prestige is one of the absolute hardest things to "move."

baxtr 8y ago

Well, then you have to come up with a good idea how to change the nature of humans. We thrive on fame as social status currency Not just in science. The equivalent in startups might be a famous VC or whatever. It’s about attaching yourself to a brand.

aeorgnoieang 8y ago
The problem (in this case) isn't "social status currency". It's that the social status currency system has real (financial) costs too! The value of a prestige journal brand is that it is (supposedly) selective in which papers it publishes; not that it costs a lot of money for people to read those papers.
Barrin92 8y ago
this has nothing to do with some mystical 'nature of humans', we're just stuck in a bad nash equilibrium. Journals thrive on reputation and nobody can individually dissent because they lose out. This is the same mechanism that keeps overpriced tuition fees at ivy league colleges afloat. The answer is to collectively get out by legislating the practice or offering a free public alternative that everybody can immediately jump too. Given that the efforts become more and more organised, (German wholesale boycott of Elsevier) this might be happening sooner than later.
- nunya213 8y ago
  But Arxiv has been around for years and the Journals haven't died yet.
  - Barrin92 8y ago
    Just offering a superior platform is not enough, as said in the last post, you also must create a way to collectively move everybody over and break the feedback loop of prestige journals. The same happens with social networks. You could offer the freest, most privacy respecting network of all, as long as individuals get punished for leaving the old one individually it'll never take over a significant amount of market share, even if everyone on the old network agrees that the newer one is better.
    - baxtr 8y ago
      Everybody would agree on this - in theory. But you don’t say how this should happen, and this is where it breaks down. The only thing that comes to mind is “magic”...
      - jdietrich 8y ago
        ... which is exactly our problem. Everyone (bar the publishers) hates the status quo, but nobody knows how to break it. My personal hope is that sci-hub will gradually erode the profitability of scientific publishing down to nothing, but breaking the stranglehold of publishers will almost certainly be a long and painful process. http://honisoit.com/2015/11/the-dictatorship-with-no-dictator/ http://honisoit.com/2015/11/the-dictatorship-with-no-dictato...
      - stale2002 8y ago
        Well, there are a couple ways it could happen. 1. The governmemt could require you to publish all your research in an open way, if it ever funded anything to do with your research. No open access, no government money. 2. Universities could band together and do something about it. This could happen both on the demand side, AND on the supply sude. For example, they could either collectively refuse to pay for journals, OR collectively refuse to hire professors who don't publish open access. Want to get Tenure? Well you are forced to publish open access. Don't like it? Then go find a different University to work for. But that might be difficult if those OTHER universies collude against you with the same rules.
    - 8y ago

ggg9990 8y ago

Prestige is one of the absolute hardest things to "move."