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I'm not saying you're this person, but a lot of people making this claim are also the people that seem argue with literally everything. They always claim they k

I'm not saying you're this person, but a lot of people making this claim are also the people that seem argue with literally everything. They always claim they know better. "Oh your team of 8 has spent the last 12 months building this complex webapp with React? Gosh darn millennial hipsters and their FRAMEWORKS. I could have built it with jQuery in a week, and still had a nickel leftover for the trolley!" Yes I've exaggerated this scenario a bit, but the point stands and it's very real.

DSingularity 8y ago
Wait what? What did you just do? Did you just claim that most people above 40 are argumentative anti progress coders? Or did you claim that most people who are claiming age based discrimination are such? Either way, how can you back these statements?
- deleted 8y ago
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- jghn 8y ago
  They’re claiming the latter. Whether or not it’s true I don’t know. As an old myself I can say anecdotally that nearly all of the interviewees we bring in who exhibit this behavior are graybeards like myself, but even then they’re a minority
- Rapzid 8y ago
  I read that as "a lot of people making that claim have or have developed these other, primary traits that are disqualifying them".
extralego 8y ago
Sounds contentious. In my experience, if older co-workers have any common differences from younger ones, it’s the opposite of what you suggest. I find myself amazed by the humbleness and acceptance that so often comes with age. Also, my observations speak to older folks having great work ethics and organizational skills, even in absence of experience with the particular task at hand.
forgottenpass 8y ago
I don't think I get your point. Are you implying that trashtalking hip design trends is grounds for age discrimination? Or that older employees give an amount of pushback on design decisions that makes them literally unhirable? I can trashtalk the design on everything I've directly worked on more accurately and damningly than things I read about online that seem like bad ideas. And I do. Do you think because I find fun to rip on things in contexts where hyperbole and humor are permissible, that it negatively impacts my ability to exercise coolheaded evaluation in collaboration and decision making contexts?
- seattle_spring 8y ago
  The fact that everyone who's offended by the post is claiming that React is a "hip design trend" kind of reinforces the point, doesn't it?
  - danShumway 8y ago
    No, I'm under 30 and React is probably a hip design trend, just like Angular and Bootstrap were. Perspective is valuable. People are offended because the post you're replying to literally only said, "I've gotten less job offers since I turned 40." Your response was, "well, that's probably your fault." To rephrase one of your earlier comments, "I'm really not saying you're ageist. I'm just saying I've experienced a non-trivial amount of victim blaming that looks like this, and it's a possibility worth considering if you want other people to take you seriously."
  - forgottenpass 8y ago
    No. That's shoddy reasoning: a) Getting pushback on your idea is not necessarily someone taking offense b) Casting react as a "hip design trend" is not - in and of itself - a statement about it's fitness for a purpose. It's a statement about popularity, and highly visible things should expect criticism. c) Even if trendy is meant to disparage the tool as nothing more than a flash in the pan, I think that gets to my (unaddressed) point about hyperbolic language in unimportant discussions. e) "The reaction proves the point" can be applied to any disagreement, therefore it doesn't reinforce a point without more substance that they're meaningfully connected. d) It's still unclear what your point was supposed to be. My ask for clarity was not facetious, so far I'm only responding to the point I can infer but find flimsy enough that I preemptively conceded you might be getting at something else.
latte 8y ago
The gp poster only states their age and their interview success ratios, in a fairly neutral tone. Jumping from this kind of information to conclusions about the gp's willingness to argue or anything else is exactly what this lawsuit is directed against, and I am looking forward to this practice being eradicated.
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teaspoons 8y ago
You _are_ saying they're that person Yes older coders have weathered more fashions and succumbed to many themselves so in some respects they do know better
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- seattle_spring 8y ago
  I'm really not. I'm just saying I've experienced a non-trivial amount of "that person", and it's a possibility worth considering if they want to remain hireable.
Ickerday 8y ago
This is such a big hyperbole that I'm just gonna call bullshit on this.
- afpx 8y ago
  No hyperbole. Seriously, I was as shocked as you are. It was a very humiliating experience. A few interesting things that I’ve experienced: - Companies tend to like me enough that they keep asking me back to “meet more people” - a very time-wasting process that often ends with silence (and no returned emails or calls) - When rejected from a particularly interesting company, I will sometimes offer to work for free or a discounted rate initially, just so I can prove what I can do. No one has ever taken that offer. - I have even offered to work at a very discounted salary, on par with a new grad salary. My rational is that I’ll still make more than I would at Whole Foods, and I’m confident that they’ll be impressed enough to bump me to my normal salary. No takers. Although one company did say that by hiring me, I would “cause more harm than good”. WTF?
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    Definitely never offer to work for free or a reduced rate. It just shows that you are desperate and don't value yourself. If you want to work for free, give speeches or contribute to open source or write a book. There activities will get you respected by other people. Working for cheap makes you lose people's respect.
    - afpx 8y ago
      True. But, I was desperate.
      - totalforge 8y ago
        It is at times a good move, but make the offer before the rejection, possibly as being willing to work as a contractor and later go full time.
      - logfromblammo 8y ago
jmull 8y ago
You should really not be afraid to hire/work with people who know things you don't. And, you will do well to actively solicit and consider their advice, not fight and disparage it. You put your scenario in disparaging terms, but consider another way to look at it: - They may well actually know better. Listen, ask questions and learn. - You say arguing, but you most definitely want people who think critically about literally everything. (You also need people who will get on board with the plan even thought they don't necessarily agree with all the details.)
wwweston 8y ago
Your point stands and is about as real as the idea of millenial hipsters saying "Oh, sure, we have a jQuery app that works right now, but that's so 2010, if you don't have an SPA everyone is laughing at you and if you think you're going to write an SPA with just jQuery do you even code bra, let's spend 6 months converting Angreactive, it's the modern-iest framework out there!" Which is to say, sure, you can boil people down to caricatures, and there will even be people who match them. There are reflexively recalcitrant developers who don't want to adopt anything new, there are technological magpies whose decisions are driven by fashion and resume bullet points. The former probably do tend older, as they have a sense of less time in general and would prefer to reserve learning for new capabilities rather than different ways of doing the same thing, and perhaps even be judicious about time learning vs doing things they value. The latter probably do skew younger, as it's easier to feel you have years and energy to burn and less reference for how change works in the industry. So what's very real are the incentives and tradeoffs underlying the decision making. The idea that what the past has provided is often adequate and investment in the new has costs is correct. The idea that there may be improvements in the new is also correct. If you believe this, maybe having cranky 50 year olds who are going to make your organization justify its decisions is actually an asset along with people who are curious to invest in the new shiny...

DSingularity 8y ago

Wait what? What did you just do? Did you just claim that most people above 40 are argumentative anti progress coders? Or did you claim that most people who are claiming age based discrimination are such? Either way, how can you back these statements?

deleted 8y ago
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jghn 8y ago
They’re claiming the latter. Whether or not it’s true I don’t know. As an old myself I can say anecdotally that nearly all of the interviewees we bring in who exhibit this behavior are graybeards like myself, but even then they’re a minority
Rapzid 8y ago
I read that as "a lot of people making that claim have or have developed these other, primary traits that are disqualifying them".

extralego 8y ago

Sounds contentious. In my experience, if older co-workers have any common differences from younger ones, it’s the opposite of what you suggest. I find myself amazed by the humbleness and acceptance that so often comes with age. Also, my observations speak to older folks having great work ethics and organizational skills, even in absence of experience with the particular task at hand.

forgottenpass 8y ago

I don't think I get your point. Are you implying that trashtalking hip design trends is grounds for age discrimination? Or that older employees give an amount of pushback on design decisions that makes them literally unhirable? I can trashtalk the design on everything I've directly worked on more accurately and damningly than things I read about online that seem like bad ideas. And I do. Do you think because I find fun to rip on things in contexts where hyperbole and humor are permissible, that it negatively impacts my ability to exercise coolheaded evaluation in collaboration and decision making contexts?

seattle_spring 8y ago
The fact that everyone who's offended by the post is claiming that React is a "hip design trend" kind of reinforces the point, doesn't it?
- danShumway 8y ago
  No, I'm under 30 and React is probably a hip design trend, just like Angular and Bootstrap were. Perspective is valuable. People are offended because the post you're replying to literally only said, "I've gotten less job offers since I turned 40." Your response was, "well, that's probably your fault." To rephrase one of your earlier comments, "I'm really not saying you're ageist. I'm just saying I've experienced a non-trivial amount of victim blaming that looks like this, and it's a possibility worth considering if you want other people to take you seriously."
- forgottenpass 8y ago
  No. That's shoddy reasoning: a) Getting pushback on your idea is not necessarily someone taking offense b) Casting react as a "hip design trend" is not - in and of itself - a statement about it's fitness for a purpose. It's a statement about popularity, and highly visible things should expect criticism. c) Even if trendy is meant to disparage the tool as nothing more than a flash in the pan, I think that gets to my (unaddressed) point about hyperbolic language in unimportant discussions. e) "The reaction proves the point" can be applied to any disagreement, therefore it doesn't reinforce a point without more substance that they're meaningfully connected. d) It's still unclear what your point was supposed to be. My ask for clarity was not facetious, so far I'm only responding to the point I can infer but find flimsy enough that I preemptively conceded you might be getting at something else.

latte 8y ago

The gp poster only states their age and their interview success ratios, in a fairly neutral tone. Jumping from this kind of information to conclusions about the gp's willingness to argue or anything else is exactly what this lawsuit is directed against, and I am looking forward to this practice being eradicated.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

teaspoons 8y ago

You _are_ saying they're that person Yes older coders have weathered more fashions and succumbed to many themselves so in some respects they do know better

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
seattle_spring 8y ago
I'm really not. I'm just saying I've experienced a non-trivial amount of "that person", and it's a possibility worth considering if they want to remain hireable.

Ickerday 8y ago

This is such a big hyperbole that I'm just gonna call bullshit on this.

afpx 8y ago
No hyperbole. Seriously, I was as shocked as you are. It was a very humiliating experience. A few interesting things that I’ve experienced: - Companies tend to like me enough that they keep asking me back to “meet more people” - a very time-wasting process that often ends with silence (and no returned emails or calls) - When rejected from a particularly interesting company, I will sometimes offer to work for free or a discounted rate initially, just so I can prove what I can do. No one has ever taken that offer. - I have even offered to work at a very discounted salary, on par with a new grad salary. My rational is that I’ll still make more than I would at Whole Foods, and I’m confident that they’ll be impressed enough to bump me to my normal salary. No takers. Although one company did say that by hiring me, I would “cause more harm than good”. WTF?
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Definitely never offer to work for free or a reduced rate. It just shows that you are desperate and don't value yourself. If you want to work for free, give speeches or contribute to open source or write a book. There activities will get you respected by other people. Working for cheap makes you lose people's respect.
  - afpx 8y ago
    True. But, I was desperate.
    - totalforge 8y ago
      It is at times a good move, but make the offer before the rejection, possibly as being willing to work as a contractor and later go full time.
    - logfromblammo 8y ago

jmull 8y ago

You should really not be afraid to hire/work with people who know things you don't. And, you will do well to actively solicit and consider their advice, not fight and disparage it. You put your scenario in disparaging terms, but consider another way to look at it: - They may well actually know better. Listen, ask questions and learn. - You say arguing, but you most definitely want people who think critically about literally everything. (You also need people who will get on board with the plan even thought they don't necessarily agree with all the details.)

wwweston 8y ago

Your point stands and is about as real as the idea of millenial hipsters saying "Oh, sure, we have a jQuery app that works right now, but that's so 2010, if you don't have an SPA everyone is laughing at you and if you think you're going to write an SPA with just jQuery do you even code bra, let's spend 6 months converting Angreactive, it's the modern-iest framework out there!" Which is to say, sure, you can boil people down to caricatures, and there will even be people who match them. There are reflexively recalcitrant developers who don't want to adopt anything new, there are technological magpies whose decisions are driven by fashion and resume bullet points. The former probably do tend older, as they have a sense of less time in general and would prefer to reserve learning for new capabilities rather than different ways of doing the same thing, and perhaps even be judicious about time learning vs doing things they value. The latter probably do skew younger, as it's easier to feel you have years and energy to burn and less reference for how change works in the industry. So what's very real are the incentives and tradeoffs underlying the decision making. The idea that what the past has provided is often adequate and investment in the new has costs is correct. The idea that there may be improvements in the new is also correct. If you believe this, maybe having cranky 50 year olds who are going to make your organization justify its decisions is actually an asset along with people who are curious to invest in the new shiny...