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What other laws do I have to comply with right now that are so vaguely defined and carry such horrifyingly punitive fees? I guess we'll have to wait and see how

What other laws do I have to comply with right now that are so vaguely defined and carry such horrifyingly punitive fees? I guess we'll have to wait and see how it's actually enforced but no other legal obligations I've had to consider so far when building products feel this threatening to smaller online businesses. It's bad enough we have to deal with patent trolls. I'm not inclined to add this to my risk profile.

fwdpropaganda 8y ago
> What other laws (...) You can't sell guns and drugs online. If you're taking money, you have to make sure you know your customer (KYC). I would also like to hear other examples.
- cageface 8y ago
  I feel like I have a pretty clear idea of the rules in the cases you describe. For GDPR I have no such confidence. It seems like the smart thing for US startups to do right now is ignore EU customers until they’ve validated the business idea enough to justify the engineering and legal expenses of taking this on.
  - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
    > I feel like I have a pretty clear idea of the rules in the cases you describe. For GDPR I have no such confidence. I seems reasonable, but I would argue it's due to the law being new, not to some intrinsic property of it, no?
  - empath75 8y ago
    The alternative is to not collect personal information from your customers.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > The alternative is to not collect personal information from your customers If that worked I'd embrace GDPR. Problem with "any consumer can make a complaint which requires expensive follow-up" regimes is one doesn't have to do anything wrong to incur costs. Someone can mis-interpret something and make a complaint. Now you have to interface with a regulator, which tends to be risky, expensive and time consuming.
      - aninhumer 8y ago
        If you're not collecting any information "interfacing with the regulator" means replying to their email by saying "we're not collecting any information". (Assuming they even got that far, given that they'd likely take a look at your website and notice you aren't collecting any information.) I'm not sure what's risky, expensive or time consuming about that.
        JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        Consumer says “I think you’re lying” and forwards to their national data regulator. (This is as simple as writing an e-mail.) Data regulator now asks you questions. You must respond. Hopefully they agree with you. But maybe not! Twenty-eight regulators appointed by different political groups are a complex system. You will need to gain expertise on them or hire someone with it. All I’m saying is that time and money might be better used elsewhere. Particularly by someone just making side projects.
        aninhumer 8y ago
        > Twenty-eight regulators appointed by different political groups are a complex system. You will need to gain expertise on them or hire someone with it. All I’m saying is that time and money might be better used elsewhere. Particularly by someone just making side projects. If you're not collecting data, then all of this is irrelevant. You just say "I'm not collecting data". There's no nuance here.
        JumpCrisscross 8y ago
- dwild 8y ago
  > You can't sell guns and drugs online. Don't care about that sphere of activity, never going to do any of theses. > If you're taking money, you have to make sure you know your customer (KYC). Can you be more precise? What are the laws about that and should'nt it be Paypal job to support that? Never wanted to compete with Paypal either.. Data is literally everywhere... that means GDPR apply to almost everything. Which is why you may see some people complains about being able to sell guns online but you will see much more people complains about GDPR.
  - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
    > Don't care about that sphere of activity, never going to do any of theses. > Can you be more precise? What are the laws about that and should'nt it be Paypal job to support that? Never wanted to compete with Paypal either.. So what you're saying is you couldn't care less unless it affects you. Got it. This is part of my point though. You're a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Who the hell doesn't know about KYC? You just woke up to the world and realized "oh shit, regulations exist! Unacceptable!". Yes, regulations exist, and this is just another one. > Data is literally everywhere... that means GDPR apply to almost everything. This isn't about data, it's about PII. And PII isn't everywhere, unless you're collecting it. > Which is why you may see some people complains about being able to sell guns online but you will see much more people complains about GDPR. No, that's not why. The reason why is that one has been around for a long time and people got used to it.
Fradow 8y ago
Other laws you had to comply with where the ones the GDPR is replacing. Several EU country had very similar law. Idon't know about the fines about such laws though, since they were not enforced. Enforcement is what's going to matter, I'm pretty sure you could dig up other laws that are vague and have high fines, that are just not enforced and thus don't seem as threatening as the widely publicized GDPR. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I may very well be wrong on my assumptions. On the other hand, patent trolls are not part of the risk profile for our industry in the EU, since software is not patentable there. But anyway, it makes perfect business sense for a US startup to just block the EU (or at least state somewhere that they are not complying and thus EU users shouldn't sign up) and focus on their home market until they are big enough to comply with the terms (or are willing to take the risk).
tremon 8y ago
The DMCA?
- Mirioron 8y ago
  If you don't use copyrighted works then DMCA is going to be a much easier problem to deal with. We have plenty of precedents to look at to assess how the DMCA works as well.
  - salvar 8y ago
    > We have plenty of precedents Did these precedents take place before or after the DMCA was enacted?

fwdpropaganda 8y ago

> What other laws (...) You can't sell guns and drugs online. If you're taking money, you have to make sure you know your customer (KYC). I would also like to hear other examples.

cageface 8y ago
I feel like I have a pretty clear idea of the rules in the cases you describe. For GDPR I have no such confidence. It seems like the smart thing for US startups to do right now is ignore EU customers until they’ve validated the business idea enough to justify the engineering and legal expenses of taking this on.
- fwdpropaganda 8y ago
  > I feel like I have a pretty clear idea of the rules in the cases you describe. For GDPR I have no such confidence. I seems reasonable, but I would argue it's due to the law being new, not to some intrinsic property of it, no?
- empath75 8y ago
  The alternative is to not collect personal information from your customers.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > The alternative is to not collect personal information from your customers If that worked I'd embrace GDPR. Problem with "any consumer can make a complaint which requires expensive follow-up" regimes is one doesn't have to do anything wrong to incur costs. Someone can mis-interpret something and make a complaint. Now you have to interface with a regulator, which tends to be risky, expensive and time consuming.
    - aninhumer 8y ago
      If you're not collecting any information "interfacing with the regulator" means replying to their email by saying "we're not collecting any information". (Assuming they even got that far, given that they'd likely take a look at your website and notice you aren't collecting any information.) I'm not sure what's risky, expensive or time consuming about that.
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        Consumer says “I think you’re lying” and forwards to their national data regulator. (This is as simple as writing an e-mail.) Data regulator now asks you questions. You must respond. Hopefully they agree with you. But maybe not! Twenty-eight regulators appointed by different political groups are a complex system. You will need to gain expertise on them or hire someone with it. All I’m saying is that time and money might be better used elsewhere. Particularly by someone just making side projects.
        aninhumer 8y ago
        > Twenty-eight regulators appointed by different political groups are a complex system. You will need to gain expertise on them or hire someone with it. All I’m saying is that time and money might be better used elsewhere. Particularly by someone just making side projects. If you're not collecting data, then all of this is irrelevant. You just say "I'm not collecting data". There's no nuance here.
        JumpCrisscross 8y ago
dwild 8y ago
> You can't sell guns and drugs online. Don't care about that sphere of activity, never going to do any of theses. > If you're taking money, you have to make sure you know your customer (KYC). Can you be more precise? What are the laws about that and should'nt it be Paypal job to support that? Never wanted to compete with Paypal either.. Data is literally everywhere... that means GDPR apply to almost everything. Which is why you may see some people complains about being able to sell guns online but you will see much more people complains about GDPR.
- fwdpropaganda 8y ago
  > Don't care about that sphere of activity, never going to do any of theses. > Can you be more precise? What are the laws about that and should'nt it be Paypal job to support that? Never wanted to compete with Paypal either.. So what you're saying is you couldn't care less unless it affects you. Got it. This is part of my point though. You're a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Who the hell doesn't know about KYC? You just woke up to the world and realized "oh shit, regulations exist! Unacceptable!". Yes, regulations exist, and this is just another one. > Data is literally everywhere... that means GDPR apply to almost everything. This isn't about data, it's about PII. And PII isn't everywhere, unless you're collecting it. > Which is why you may see some people complains about being able to sell guns online but you will see much more people complains about GDPR. No, that's not why. The reason why is that one has been around for a long time and people got used to it.

Fradow 8y ago

Other laws you had to comply with where the ones the GDPR is replacing. Several EU country had very similar law. Idon't know about the fines about such laws though, since they were not enforced. Enforcement is what's going to matter, I'm pretty sure you could dig up other laws that are vague and have high fines, that are just not enforced and thus don't seem as threatening as the widely publicized GDPR. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I may very well be wrong on my assumptions. On the other hand, patent trolls are not part of the risk profile for our industry in the EU, since software is not patentable there. But anyway, it makes perfect business sense for a US startup to just block the EU (or at least state somewhere that they are not complying and thus EU users shouldn't sign up) and focus on their home market until they are big enough to comply with the terms (or are willing to take the risk).

tremon 8y ago

The DMCA?

Mirioron 8y ago
If you don't use copyrighted works then DMCA is going to be a much easier problem to deal with. We have plenty of precedents to look at to assess how the DMCA works as well.
- salvar 8y ago
  > We have plenty of precedents Did these precedents take place before or after the DMCA was enacted?