4 ms·

You can't really terraform Mars either, not enough gravity. And even if it was possible, the amount of work required to bring the air there is orders of magnitu

You can't really terraform Mars either, not enough gravity. And even if it was possible, the amount of work required to bring the air there is orders of magnitude more than simply building domes over some select craters and filling those with air, a sort of micro terraforming if you will.

sigstoat 8y ago
> You can't really terraform Mars either what's wrong with Zubrin's plan? > not enough gravity. what's gravity got to do with it? ADDED: if you're going to tell me the gravity is necessary to hold onto the atmosphere, great, i'm actually familiar with that mechanism. i assert that mars' proclivity for losing the lighter atmosphere over millions of years isn't relevant, and that it'll hold onto everything important for Long Enough.
- okonomiyaki3000 8y ago
  Without enough gravity, your atmosphere leaks away into space. This may have already happened to mars once.
  - sigstoat 8y ago
    happened once? because the gravity changed? it'd be an ongoing process. and only hydrogen and helium are currently prone to jeans escape on mars. the current dominant mechanism for atmospheric loss is the solar wind. which eats away ~1/3 megaton/century. mars has teratons of atmosphere remaining. and it can be added faster than that rate of loss. (once warmed up, oxygen may begin to escape the atmosphere again. not necessarily faster than it can be replaced, though.)
- ajross 8y ago
  > what's gravity got to do with it? When the speed of molecules in the atmosphere (thermal, and thus dependent on molecular weight) approaches escape velocity for the body, the atmosphere starts to leak that component. Gasses like N2 (molecular weight 28) and oxygen (32) will "stick" to Earth where Helium (4) won't. Mars can hold CO2 (44) but not O2.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    But it takes a billion years or so for the atmosphere to erode away. That's plenty of time to get some ROI out of terraforming Mars.
- MikkoFinell 8y ago
  > what's gravity got to do with it? Gravity got the following to do with it: Lower gravity makes it easier for the atmosphere to escape to space, especially since Mars has a very weak magnetosphere. Second, to have a human-breathable atmosphere you need not only the right composition, but also the right pressure, and to get that pressure on Mars you'd require an atmosphere more than 2,5 times the mass of Earth's. Where are you going to get it from? Even if it was available to you, using it to make Mars globally breathable would be an ENORMOUS waste compared to simply pressurizing domes and bunkers instead.
  - sigstoat 8y ago
    Zubrin's plan discusses where all the other atmosphere comes from. do you have some specific problem with the suggested process?
samplatt 8y ago
Even low gravity will keep your atmosphere close to the surface. What causes atmospheric erosion is solar wind, and the reason Earth isn't affected (much) is that we still have a powerful magnetosphere, powered by our spinning molten iron core. Mars has a magnetosphere but it's much weaker since its core is cooler and slower and smaller. If we nuked the polar ice caps (or similar method to warm + evaporate them) it would generate enough of an atmosphere for the external pressure to be livable - maybe even breathable. Since the magnetosphere is still weak, this atmosphere would be eroded over time, but we're talking tens of thousands of years or more.
- MikkoFinell 8y ago
  > If we nuked the polar ice caps (or similar method to warm + evaporate them) it would generate enough of an atmosphere for the external pressure to be livable - maybe even breathable. Source? Even granted that would be possible, it would be an enormous waste. Let's say it's possible to use the polar ice caps to create a breathable atmosphere, why do it for the whole planet instead of using it strategically to pressurize domes where people actually live? Added bonus: The domes provide partial shielding for the radiation on Mars. If you believe the ice on Mars can sustain a breathable global atmosphere for ten thousand years, how long will it last when used in closed systems like domes?
  - samplatt 8y ago
    That's fine. I was simplifying for the purpose of illumination. No disagreement on your points.
  - hndamien 8y ago
    I guess it means living indoors until we find another Earth candidate which we won't be able to travel to.
- ValleyOfTheMtns 8y ago
  I read somewhere that installing a powerful magnet at one of the Lagrangian points between Mars and the Sun would be sufficient to shield Mars from the solar winds that strip away the atmosphere. That would be a far cheaper and less disruptive way of keeping an atmosphere on Mars. edit: Here you go: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4851d85e0791b http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4851d85e0791b
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

sigstoat 8y ago

> You can't really terraform Mars either what's wrong with Zubrin's plan? > not enough gravity. what's gravity got to do with it? ADDED: if you're going to tell me the gravity is necessary to hold onto the atmosphere, great, i'm actually familiar with that mechanism. i assert that mars' proclivity for losing the lighter atmosphere over millions of years isn't relevant, and that it'll hold onto everything important for Long Enough.

okonomiyaki3000 8y ago
Without enough gravity, your atmosphere leaks away into space. This may have already happened to mars once.
- sigstoat 8y ago
  happened once? because the gravity changed? it'd be an ongoing process. and only hydrogen and helium are currently prone to jeans escape on mars. the current dominant mechanism for atmospheric loss is the solar wind. which eats away ~1/3 megaton/century. mars has teratons of atmosphere remaining. and it can be added faster than that rate of loss. (once warmed up, oxygen may begin to escape the atmosphere again. not necessarily faster than it can be replaced, though.)
ajross 8y ago
> what's gravity got to do with it? When the speed of molecules in the atmosphere (thermal, and thus dependent on molecular weight) approaches escape velocity for the body, the atmosphere starts to leak that component. Gasses like N2 (molecular weight 28) and oxygen (32) will "stick" to Earth where Helium (4) won't. Mars can hold CO2 (44) but not O2.
- adrianN 8y ago
  But it takes a billion years or so for the atmosphere to erode away. That's plenty of time to get some ROI out of terraforming Mars.
MikkoFinell 8y ago
> what's gravity got to do with it? Gravity got the following to do with it: Lower gravity makes it easier for the atmosphere to escape to space, especially since Mars has a very weak magnetosphere. Second, to have a human-breathable atmosphere you need not only the right composition, but also the right pressure, and to get that pressure on Mars you'd require an atmosphere more than 2,5 times the mass of Earth's. Where are you going to get it from? Even if it was available to you, using it to make Mars globally breathable would be an ENORMOUS waste compared to simply pressurizing domes and bunkers instead.
- sigstoat 8y ago
  Zubrin's plan discusses where all the other atmosphere comes from. do you have some specific problem with the suggested process?

samplatt 8y ago

Even low gravity will keep your atmosphere close to the surface. What causes atmospheric erosion is solar wind, and the reason Earth isn't affected (much) is that we still have a powerful magnetosphere, powered by our spinning molten iron core. Mars has a magnetosphere but it's much weaker since its core is cooler and slower and smaller. If we nuked the polar ice caps (or similar method to warm + evaporate them) it would generate enough of an atmosphere for the external pressure to be livable - maybe even breathable. Since the magnetosphere is still weak, this atmosphere would be eroded over time, but we're talking tens of thousands of years or more.

MikkoFinell 8y ago
> If we nuked the polar ice caps (or similar method to warm + evaporate them) it would generate enough of an atmosphere for the external pressure to be livable - maybe even breathable. Source? Even granted that would be possible, it would be an enormous waste. Let's say it's possible to use the polar ice caps to create a breathable atmosphere, why do it for the whole planet instead of using it strategically to pressurize domes where people actually live? Added bonus: The domes provide partial shielding for the radiation on Mars. If you believe the ice on Mars can sustain a breathable global atmosphere for ten thousand years, how long will it last when used in closed systems like domes?
- samplatt 8y ago
  That's fine. I was simplifying for the purpose of illumination. No disagreement on your points.
- hndamien 8y ago
  I guess it means living indoors until we find another Earth candidate which we won't be able to travel to.
ValleyOfTheMtns 8y ago
I read somewhere that installing a powerful magnet at one of the Lagrangian points between Mars and the Sun would be sufficient to shield Mars from the solar winds that strip away the atmosphere. That would be a far cheaper and less disruptive way of keeping an atmosphere on Mars. edit: Here you go: http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4851d85e0791b http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/4851d85e0791b

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]