6 ms·

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile g

by ruytlm 8y ago

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destroy lives, which is why gambling is highly regulated. Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated.

pfisch 8y ago
> Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated. Gambling should be considered gambling. If paying for variable and unpredictable levels of entertainment is gambling, then you have broadened the definition so wide that it is now meaningless. You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling.
- fraudsyndrome 8y ago
  > You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling. The appropriate comparison would be buying a ticket to sit down and watch a movie, you don't get to choose the movie though, you have a chance to see the movie you want but there are maybe 9 other movies that you don't want to watch. Maybe the movie you want to watch is super popular and you've seen the other 9 movies several times already. Probably the most basic comparison minus an analogy for all the addictive flashing lights and all that associated with gambling (incl. loot boxes)
  - pfisch 8y ago
    No, that would not be the appropriate comparison at all. That is the comparison that is more similar to loot boxes, but not to the definition you have decided upon. Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment value as the element of prize. Gambling requires chance, prize and consideration. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e-4e7d-863f-e8e526e31648 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e... At the point where entertainment value is the prize, you have now created a definition of gambling that includes both your example of a random movie, and my example of any movie. The thing I hate about all of these lootboxes as gambling arguments is that they have no appreciation for what gambling actually is. Instead gambling is now just whatever you feel like is gambling in your gut, not an actual real legal and enforceable definition. You want to regulate lootboxes, fine, but trying to draw an equivalency to real gambling and lootboxes is just not possible without classifying almost every transaction as gambling. But honestly, if you want to regulate loot boxes we should probably start by regulating video game addiction because it is a much larger problem that effects a much larger audience. All of these deeply concerned people who want to regulate loot boxes somehow don't seem to overlap with the group of people who want to regulate video game addiction though. Because the deeper truth is that people want to wield the tools of government like a cudgel to force video game developers to make the kind of games they want. This whole thing is just a fig leaf similar to how child porn is used to censor the internet and enforce copyright.
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      > Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment as the element of prize Variable entertainment? Then a lottery scratch card is "variable entertainment", whatever that is supposed to be. As is I can't distinguish a scratchcard from a lootbox except one has some regulation. They have a feature prize that is the reason for purchase, they have small odds of achieving the feature/promoted prize (Game loot boxes frequently don't give the actual odds), they cost real currency, they can give something of value. Do you then claim that a scratch card is not gambling?
      - pfisch 8y ago
        Let me clear it up for you. The entertainment you derive from a scratch lottery ticket is not the "prize" element of gambling. The prize is the money you win from the scratch off. Gambling devices pay out a prize that is worth a real redeemable cash value and can be sold on an open market. What prize does a loot box give you that is not purely for entertainment value? They do not give you a prize that is redeemable for cash.
        called_it 8y ago
        Hmmm. > the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes
        pfisch 8y ago
        What is that websters? That is not the legal definition of gambling, and all court decisions on the subject clearly indicate that gambling requires real cash value to the prizes and not just entertainment that has no actual value. Loot boxes do not have the 3rd element of gambling, which is the recognized legal definition in virtually every jurisdiction. https://www.truthfinder.com/glossary/gambling-definition/ https://www.truthfinder.com/glossary/gambling-definition/ "In order for the activity to be considered gambling, it must contain three separate elements. These are consideration, chance, and a prize. If one or more of these elements is not present, then gambling is not taking place." "The final element of gambling is the prize. If the player has the chance to win something of value, then gambling is taking place. Again, the amount or value of the prize is inconsequential. As long as it has some value, it is considered gambling."
  - simion314 8y ago
    Add on top that the good movies are rare and tons of garbage movies are in the list, the probabilities are hidden and there are no laws to make it fair so they can use who knows what algorithm to determine when you win.
Karunamon 8y ago
How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.
- __david__ 8y ago
  For one, loot boxes are instant gratification. Cards and arcade machine rewards required going somewhere and physically buying something. A loot boxes is more like sitting in front of a slot machine and thinking, "oh just one more roll, I was so close this time!". Loot boxes also tend to really push you towards expensive options. 10 boxes for $9.99, 25 for $19.99, 125 for $99.99 (best value!!). Magic The Gathering cards are not cheap either but they also don't try to push you into buying a whole booster box as an impulse purchase.
  - pfisch 8y ago
    This has nothing to do with whether it is gambling or not.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      It's pretty obvious that both CCGs and loot boxes are forms of gambling. The question is what effects they're having and how they need to be regulated. Loot boxes have a lot more of the features that make gambling a problem, and children are less equipped to handle it. It's reasonable to regulate the benign thing differently from the harmful thing.
      - pfisch 8y ago
        I think it is more clear that a CCG is a form of gambling. Loot boxes do not give you anything that you can redeem for cash.
- watwut 8y ago

by ruytlm 8y ago

pfisch 8y ago

> Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated. Gambling should be considered gambling. If paying for variable and unpredictable levels of entertainment is gambling, then you have broadened the definition so wide that it is now meaningless. You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling.

fraudsyndrome 8y ago
> You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling. The appropriate comparison would be buying a ticket to sit down and watch a movie, you don't get to choose the movie though, you have a chance to see the movie you want but there are maybe 9 other movies that you don't want to watch. Maybe the movie you want to watch is super popular and you've seen the other 9 movies several times already. Probably the most basic comparison minus an analogy for all the addictive flashing lights and all that associated with gambling (incl. loot boxes)
- pfisch 8y ago
  No, that would not be the appropriate comparison at all. That is the comparison that is more similar to loot boxes, but not to the definition you have decided upon. Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment value as the element of prize. Gambling requires chance, prize and consideration. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e-4e7d-863f-e8e526e31648 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e... At the point where entertainment value is the prize, you have now created a definition of gambling that includes both your example of a random movie, and my example of any movie. The thing I hate about all of these lootboxes as gambling arguments is that they have no appreciation for what gambling actually is. Instead gambling is now just whatever you feel like is gambling in your gut, not an actual real legal and enforceable definition. You want to regulate lootboxes, fine, but trying to draw an equivalency to real gambling and lootboxes is just not possible without classifying almost every transaction as gambling. But honestly, if you want to regulate loot boxes we should probably start by regulating video game addiction because it is a much larger problem that effects a much larger audience. All of these deeply concerned people who want to regulate loot boxes somehow don't seem to overlap with the group of people who want to regulate video game addiction though. Because the deeper truth is that people want to wield the tools of government like a cudgel to force video game developers to make the kind of games they want. This whole thing is just a fig leaf similar to how child porn is used to censor the internet and enforce copyright.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    > Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment as the element of prize Variable entertainment? Then a lottery scratch card is "variable entertainment", whatever that is supposed to be. As is I can't distinguish a scratchcard from a lootbox except one has some regulation. They have a feature prize that is the reason for purchase, they have small odds of achieving the feature/promoted prize (Game loot boxes frequently don't give the actual odds), they cost real currency, they can give something of value. Do you then claim that a scratch card is not gambling?
    - pfisch 8y ago
      Let me clear it up for you. The entertainment you derive from a scratch lottery ticket is not the "prize" element of gambling. The prize is the money you win from the scratch off. Gambling devices pay out a prize that is worth a real redeemable cash value and can be sold on an open market. What prize does a loot box give you that is not purely for entertainment value? They do not give you a prize that is redeemable for cash.
      - called_it 8y ago
        Hmmm. > the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes
        pfisch 8y ago
        What is that websters? That is not the legal definition of gambling, and all court decisions on the subject clearly indicate that gambling requires real cash value to the prizes and not just entertainment that has no actual value. Loot boxes do not have the 3rd element of gambling, which is the recognized legal definition in virtually every jurisdiction. https://www.truthfinder.com/glossary/gambling-definition/ https://www.truthfinder.com/glossary/gambling-definition/ "In order for the activity to be considered gambling, it must contain three separate elements. These are consideration, chance, and a prize. If one or more of these elements is not present, then gambling is not taking place." "The final element of gambling is the prize. If the player has the chance to win something of value, then gambling is taking place. Again, the amount or value of the prize is inconsequential. As long as it has some value, it is considered gambling."
- simion314 8y ago
  Add on top that the good movies are rare and tons of garbage movies are in the list, the probabilities are hidden and there are no laws to make it fair so they can use who knows what algorithm to determine when you win.

Karunamon 8y ago

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

__david__ 8y ago
For one, loot boxes are instant gratification. Cards and arcade machine rewards required going somewhere and physically buying something. A loot boxes is more like sitting in front of a slot machine and thinking, "oh just one more roll, I was so close this time!". Loot boxes also tend to really push you towards expensive options. 10 boxes for $9.99, 25 for $19.99, 125 for $99.99 (best value!!). Magic The Gathering cards are not cheap either but they also don't try to push you into buying a whole booster box as an impulse purchase.
- pfisch 8y ago
  This has nothing to do with whether it is gambling or not.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    It's pretty obvious that both CCGs and loot boxes are forms of gambling. The question is what effects they're having and how they need to be regulated. Loot boxes have a lot more of the features that make gambling a problem, and children are less equipped to handle it. It's reasonable to regulate the benign thing differently from the harmful thing.
    - pfisch 8y ago
      I think it is more clear that a CCG is a form of gambling. Loot boxes do not give you anything that you can redeem for cash.
watwut 8y ago