6 ms·

Hey uh, I don’t do a lot of mobile gaming, but what’s a loot box and why should I care if it’s gambling or not?

ruytlm 8y ago
Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destroy lives, which is why gambling is highly regulated. Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated.
- pfisch 8y ago
  > Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated. Gambling should be considered gambling. If paying for variable and unpredictable levels of entertainment is gambling, then you have broadened the definition so wide that it is now meaningless. You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling.
  - fraudsyndrome 8y ago
    > You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling. The appropriate comparison would be buying a ticket to sit down and watch a movie, you don't get to choose the movie though, you have a chance to see the movie you want but there are maybe 9 other movies that you don't want to watch. Maybe the movie you want to watch is super popular and you've seen the other 9 movies several times already. Probably the most basic comparison minus an analogy for all the addictive flashing lights and all that associated with gambling (incl. loot boxes)
    - pfisch 8y ago
      No, that would not be the appropriate comparison at all. That is the comparison that is more similar to loot boxes, but not to the definition you have decided upon. Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment value as the element of prize. Gambling requires chance, prize and consideration. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e-4e7d-863f-e8e526e31648 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e... At the point where entertainment value is the prize, you have now created a definition of gambling that includes both your example of a random movie, and my example of any movie. The thing I hate about all of these lootboxes as gambling arguments is that they have no appreciation for what gambling actually is. Instead gambling is now just whatever you feel like is gambling in your gut, not an actual real legal and enforceable definition. You want to regulate lootboxes, fine, but trying to draw an equivalency to real gambling and lootboxes is just not possible without classifying almost every transaction as gambling. But honestly, if you want to regulate loot boxes we should probably start by regulating video game addiction because it is a much larger problem that effects a much larger audience. All of these deeply concerned people who want to regulate loot boxes somehow don't seem to overlap with the group of people who want to regulate video game addiction though. Because the deeper truth is that people want to wield the tools of government like a cudgel to force video game developers to make the kind of games they want. This whole thing is just a fig leaf similar to how child porn is used to censor the internet and enforce copyright.
      - oldcynic 8y ago
        > Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment as the element of prize Variable entertainment? Then a lottery scratch card is "variable entertainment", whatever that is supposed to be. As is I can't distinguish a scratchcard from a lootbox except one has some regulation. They have a feature prize that is the reason for purchase, they have small odds of achieving the feature/promoted prize (Game loot boxes frequently don't give the actual odds), they cost real currency, they can give something of value. Do you then claim that a scratch card is not gambling?
- Karunamon 8y ago
  How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.
  - __david__ 8y ago
    For one, loot boxes are instant gratification. Cards and arcade machine rewards required going somewhere and physically buying something. A loot boxes is more like sitting in front of a slot machine and thinking, "oh just one more roll, I was so close this time!". Loot boxes also tend to really push you towards expensive options. 10 boxes for $9.99, 25 for $19.99, 125 for $99.99 (best value!!). Magic The Gathering cards are not cheap either but they also don't try to push you into buying a whole booster box as an impulse purchase.
    - pfisch 8y ago
      This has nothing to do with whether it is gambling or not.
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago
        It's pretty obvious that both CCGs and loot boxes are forms of gambling. The question is what effects they're having and how they need to be regulated. Loot boxes have a lot more of the features that make gambling a problem, and children are less equipped to handle it. It's reasonable to regulate the benign thing differently from the harmful thing.
        pfisch 8y ago
        I think it is more clear that a CCG is a form of gambling. Loot boxes do not give you anything that you can redeem for cash.
  - watwut 8y ago
JasonSage 8y ago
Couple things: 1) This is very prevalent in high budget desktop/console games as well, not just mobile games. 2) These games typically do little to nothing to abide by laws that prohibit gambling by minors. There are definitely concerns of whether this is ethical or legal.
- pfisch 8y ago
  You seem to have accepted that loot boxes are a form of gambling even though that is not really the agreed upon legal definition of gambling.
  - irishsultan 8y ago
    The question was "why should I care whether it's gambling". Answers that point out the (legal/moral) consequences of it being gambling are entirely appropriate, even if they don't give any consideration to the possibility that it might not in fact be gambling.
siddboots 8y ago
The article is talking about competitive multiplayer games, rather than mobile games. DOTA 2 and CS:GO are the examples used. Theres a few elements that, together, make it extremely problematic in my opinion. Using CS:GO as the example: 1. Items are dropped randomly, or you can buy randomised "crates". By design, plain looking drops are common, while visually impressive drops are rare. 2. When you buy crates and unlock them, there is a "wheel of fortune" style visual system that indicates what item you will receive. There are audio and visual cues indicating how rare or common the item is. 4. There is an in-game trading system that allows users to buy and sell items at an agreed price. Rare items are naturally more expensive on this market. The majority of CS:GO's revenue comes from cuts of these trades. 5. Kids play CS:GO. It is very common to run into young teenagers (13-15) in matchmaking servers. 6. Kids who are exposed to gambling are much more likely to become addicted than adults, are much less likely to have the means to repay debt, and therefore are not held responsible for gambling losses in the eyes of the law. Gambling under the age of 16 is illegal in most countries, and in many cases under 18.
- ygra 8y ago
  It should be noted that most items in CS:GO cannot be obtained as a normal drop, only from a crate, so it's not so much that good-looking drops are rare, it's that good-looking items can usually only be obtained by paying money to open a box (AWP Dragon Lore being one of the few exceptions).
zeta0134 8y ago
A loot box is specifically an item that can be purchased in-game that offers a random reward, typically from a loot table and with set odds known only to the game maker. They come in many forms; one of the most obvious is found in Overwatch right now, typically awarded to the player after they level up in game. Overwatch's loot box animation is very pretty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 If this sounds kind of familiar, it's because a similar concept exists in many Arcades already, in the form of capsule machines. Japanese Gashapon are the oft-cited inspiration, but countless variations on this idea exist. Here in South Texas, they're a common sight in grocery stores and restaurants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon On their own, random rewards in a video game sound tame, but where this gets questionably ethical are games which (a) accept real money for in-game purchases, and (b) offer loot-boxes as an in-game purchase. This enables game players to pay real money to receive a random reward, and it's not hard to draw comparisons to real life slot machines. Unlike real-life gambling though, loot boxes have been popping up in games that are often targeted towards minors, making the issue even more complicated. I won't weigh in on the issue here, I just wanted to try to clarify what they are.
- ng12 8y ago
  I think Overwatch is a bad example because you can't turn the loot into real money. Valve's games are a better example because you can sell the loot directly through Steam -- in some cases for hundreds of dollars.
  - dharmab 8y ago
    Overwatch is also a bad (good) example because the developers have a policy where only cosmetic items are available through the loot boxes, while all gameplay features are free for everyone. Many other loot box games offer items that increase player power or change gameplay in loot boxes. For example, the prerelease version of Star Wars Battlefront 2 (2017) had a backlash because of items such as "Deal 30% more damage with ship blasters." Other games may have items such as "Deal 20% more damage, but reduce health by 30%" which open up additional strategic options.

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destroy lives, which is why gambling is highly regulated. Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated.

pfisch 8y ago
> Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated. Gambling should be considered gambling. If paying for variable and unpredictable levels of entertainment is gambling, then you have broadened the definition so wide that it is now meaningless. You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling.
- fraudsyndrome 8y ago
  > You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling. The appropriate comparison would be buying a ticket to sit down and watch a movie, you don't get to choose the movie though, you have a chance to see the movie you want but there are maybe 9 other movies that you don't want to watch. Maybe the movie you want to watch is super popular and you've seen the other 9 movies several times already. Probably the most basic comparison minus an analogy for all the addictive flashing lights and all that associated with gambling (incl. loot boxes)
  - pfisch 8y ago
    No, that would not be the appropriate comparison at all. That is the comparison that is more similar to loot boxes, but not to the definition you have decided upon. Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment value as the element of prize. Gambling requires chance, prize and consideration. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e-4e7d-863f-e8e526e31648 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e7b39fc2-501e... At the point where entertainment value is the prize, you have now created a definition of gambling that includes both your example of a random movie, and my example of any movie. The thing I hate about all of these lootboxes as gambling arguments is that they have no appreciation for what gambling actually is. Instead gambling is now just whatever you feel like is gambling in your gut, not an actual real legal and enforceable definition. You want to regulate lootboxes, fine, but trying to draw an equivalency to real gambling and lootboxes is just not possible without classifying almost every transaction as gambling. But honestly, if you want to regulate loot boxes we should probably start by regulating video game addiction because it is a much larger problem that effects a much larger audience. All of these deeply concerned people who want to regulate loot boxes somehow don't seem to overlap with the group of people who want to regulate video game addiction though. Because the deeper truth is that people want to wield the tools of government like a cudgel to force video game developers to make the kind of games they want. This whole thing is just a fig leaf similar to how child porn is used to censor the internet and enforce copyright.
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      > Loot boxes give you variable entertainment, but for that to be gambling you have now defined entertainment as the element of prize Variable entertainment? Then a lottery scratch card is "variable entertainment", whatever that is supposed to be. As is I can't distinguish a scratchcard from a lootbox except one has some regulation. They have a feature prize that is the reason for purchase, they have small odds of achieving the feature/promoted prize (Game loot boxes frequently don't give the actual odds), they cost real currency, they can give something of value. Do you then claim that a scratch card is not gambling?
Karunamon 8y ago
How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.
- __david__ 8y ago
  For one, loot boxes are instant gratification. Cards and arcade machine rewards required going somewhere and physically buying something. A loot boxes is more like sitting in front of a slot machine and thinking, "oh just one more roll, I was so close this time!". Loot boxes also tend to really push you towards expensive options. 10 boxes for $9.99, 25 for $19.99, 125 for $99.99 (best value!!). Magic The Gathering cards are not cheap either but they also don't try to push you into buying a whole booster box as an impulse purchase.
  - pfisch 8y ago
    This has nothing to do with whether it is gambling or not.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      It's pretty obvious that both CCGs and loot boxes are forms of gambling. The question is what effects they're having and how they need to be regulated. Loot boxes have a lot more of the features that make gambling a problem, and children are less equipped to handle it. It's reasonable to regulate the benign thing differently from the harmful thing.
      - pfisch 8y ago
        I think it is more clear that a CCG is a form of gambling. Loot boxes do not give you anything that you can redeem for cash.
- watwut 8y ago

JasonSage 8y ago

Couple things: 1) This is very prevalent in high budget desktop/console games as well, not just mobile games. 2) These games typically do little to nothing to abide by laws that prohibit gambling by minors. There are definitely concerns of whether this is ethical or legal.

pfisch 8y ago
You seem to have accepted that loot boxes are a form of gambling even though that is not really the agreed upon legal definition of gambling.
- irishsultan 8y ago
  The question was "why should I care whether it's gambling". Answers that point out the (legal/moral) consequences of it being gambling are entirely appropriate, even if they don't give any consideration to the possibility that it might not in fact be gambling.

siddboots 8y ago

The article is talking about competitive multiplayer games, rather than mobile games. DOTA 2 and CS:GO are the examples used. Theres a few elements that, together, make it extremely problematic in my opinion. Using CS:GO as the example: 1. Items are dropped randomly, or you can buy randomised "crates". By design, plain looking drops are common, while visually impressive drops are rare. 2. When you buy crates and unlock them, there is a "wheel of fortune" style visual system that indicates what item you will receive. There are audio and visual cues indicating how rare or common the item is. 4. There is an in-game trading system that allows users to buy and sell items at an agreed price. Rare items are naturally more expensive on this market. The majority of CS:GO's revenue comes from cuts of these trades. 5. Kids play CS:GO. It is very common to run into young teenagers (13-15) in matchmaking servers. 6. Kids who are exposed to gambling are much more likely to become addicted than adults, are much less likely to have the means to repay debt, and therefore are not held responsible for gambling losses in the eyes of the law. Gambling under the age of 16 is illegal in most countries, and in many cases under 18.

ygra 8y ago
It should be noted that most items in CS:GO cannot be obtained as a normal drop, only from a crate, so it's not so much that good-looking drops are rare, it's that good-looking items can usually only be obtained by paying money to open a box (AWP Dragon Lore being one of the few exceptions).

zeta0134 8y ago

A loot box is specifically an item that can be purchased in-game that offers a random reward, typically from a loot table and with set odds known only to the game maker. They come in many forms; one of the most obvious is found in Overwatch right now, typically awarded to the player after they level up in game. Overwatch's loot box animation is very pretty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 If this sounds kind of familiar, it's because a similar concept exists in many Arcades already, in the form of capsule machines. Japanese Gashapon are the oft-cited inspiration, but countless variations on this idea exist. Here in South Texas, they're a common sight in grocery stores and restaurants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon On their own, random rewards in a video game sound tame, but where this gets questionably ethical are games which (a) accept real money for in-game purchases, and (b) offer loot-boxes as an in-game purchase. This enables game players to pay real money to receive a random reward, and it's not hard to draw comparisons to real life slot machines. Unlike real-life gambling though, loot boxes have been popping up in games that are often targeted towards minors, making the issue even more complicated. I won't weigh in on the issue here, I just wanted to try to clarify what they are.

ng12 8y ago
I think Overwatch is a bad example because you can't turn the loot into real money. Valve's games are a better example because you can sell the loot directly through Steam -- in some cases for hundreds of dollars.
- dharmab 8y ago
  Overwatch is also a bad (good) example because the developers have a policy where only cosmetic items are available through the loot boxes, while all gameplay features are free for everyone. Many other loot box games offer items that increase player power or change gameplay in loot boxes. For example, the prerelease version of Star Wars Battlefront 2 (2017) had a backlash because of items such as "Deal 30% more damage with ship blasters." Other games may have items such as "Deal 20% more damage, but reduce health by 30%" which open up additional strategic options.