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kubernetes is a classic case of a tool designed for consultants and companies to sell consulting services (Including cloud services, which is why every cloud pr

by nimish 8y ago

kubernetes is a classic case of a tool designed for consultants and companies to sell consulting services (Including cloud services, which is why every cloud provider leapt onto it). In like 90% of the cases when someone used Kubernetes, Docker Swarm would have easily sufficed.

chrisweekly 8y ago
Docker Swarm is a hot mess.
- jhanschoo 8y ago
  I'm inclined to agree with you, but you need to substantiate your thesis with evidence.
  - raarts 8y ago
    If you are, so would you.
- coding123 8y ago
  I've used it extensively and have been happy with it. I've never seen more fud in HN than in swarm vs kub threads.
- tuananh 8y ago
  isn't docker swarm declared dead by docker team?
  - coding123 8y ago
    This is FUD
  - BretFisher 8y ago
    nope https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docker-captain/ https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docke...
- raarts 8y ago
  This is bull. I use both and the difference I see is: - Swarm does not have namespaces, a swarm cannot be divided into multiple independent ones. - Swarm CE does not have per-operator Auth And - k8s has more moving parts - has more complicated config files To me swarm is to k8s like nginx is to apache. The former is lean and easy to setup, the latter has all the bells and whistles for enterprisey, service provider scenarios.
- erikb 8y ago
  It might be and still succeed compared to its big brother.
lobster_johnson 8y ago
Disagree. OpenShift and CNCF are arguably exactly that, but Kubernetes itself isn't. It came out of the engineering team at Google, and its technical merit shouldn't be confused with the considerable marketing effort being put behind it. Docker Swarm is much more deserving of this kind of cynicism -- a weak, badly designed solution forced on users by a company that's realizing their invention has been commoditized and is no longer a platform they control. Swarm was redesigned at one point to work more like Kubernetes because they realized it was a much saner model. Kubernetes has more complexity, but it does scale down to single-node clusters.
- nimish 8y ago
  I disagree. Kubernetes came out of Google, but has exploded in popularity due to its capability (which comes with extreme complexity): it can scale to extreme levels, but wrapping your head around it requires far more time and trouble for your most basic apps. Thus, you see the software consultants race to become the next Kubernetes experts, since choosing to deploy it essentially requires that you have dedicated professionals managing it (as Google does). Docker Swarm might be incomplete and missing quite a few features, and it won't scale to thousands of nodes with dozens of independent apps, but the use-cases I've seen are far from that. A single engineer can basically get a "good-enough" moderately scaled system going. If you have Google-scale problems with Google-caliber engineers and SREs backing you, use Kubernetes. Otherwise, using something else (Docker Swarm "just worked" for the cases I've seen) is easier.
  - Draiken 8y ago
    If you can use docker swarm you can use Kubernetes. At that point k8s is just plain better. The core of Kubernetes is super simple and all the hard parts are hidden away on actually setting up and maintaining kubernetes the hard way on bare metal machines. Odds are, if you're doing that, you have the resources to take some time to dive deeper into how it works. I've done multiple single engineer Kubernetes setups that are working on production today. So far I've had only a few problems with it. I know it's not a huge data range, but I'm not the smartest person in the world (or a true infrastructure guy) and still found it easy to work with. Swarm has always been a rushed afterthought IMO. Although I have way less experience with it than k8s, so I'm biased on this.
erikb 8y ago
Why is this so heavily downvoted? A clear, legit opinion to have. In my experience it's even like this: I have never seen any working kubernetes app. But I deployed my own hello world docker swarm app in 2 days. (And that is a fact, not an opinion. The opinion part is up to you.)
- nvarsj 8y ago
  Because it's not remotely true, and is very cynical and biased without any evidence. k8s success isn't because of some consultancy marketing, it's because a lot of people are using it very successfully in production, myself included.
  - erikb 8y ago
    Oh didn't know we are in the comedy channel here. A penguin walks into a bar, goes to the counter, and asks the bartender, "Have you seen my brother?" The bartender says, "I don't know. What does he look like?"

by nimish 8y ago

chrisweekly 8y ago

Docker Swarm is a hot mess.

jhanschoo 8y ago
I'm inclined to agree with you, but you need to substantiate your thesis with evidence.
- raarts 8y ago
  If you are, so would you.
coding123 8y ago
I've used it extensively and have been happy with it. I've never seen more fud in HN than in swarm vs kub threads.
tuananh 8y ago
isn't docker swarm declared dead by docker team?
- coding123 8y ago
  This is FUD
- BretFisher 8y ago
  nope https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docker-captain/ https://www.bretfisher.com/is-swarm-dead-answered-by-a-docke...
raarts 8y ago
This is bull. I use both and the difference I see is: - Swarm does not have namespaces, a swarm cannot be divided into multiple independent ones. - Swarm CE does not have per-operator Auth And - k8s has more moving parts - has more complicated config files To me swarm is to k8s like nginx is to apache. The former is lean and easy to setup, the latter has all the bells and whistles for enterprisey, service provider scenarios.
erikb 8y ago
It might be and still succeed compared to its big brother.

lobster_johnson 8y ago

Disagree. OpenShift and CNCF are arguably exactly that, but Kubernetes itself isn't. It came out of the engineering team at Google, and its technical merit shouldn't be confused with the considerable marketing effort being put behind it. Docker Swarm is much more deserving of this kind of cynicism -- a weak, badly designed solution forced on users by a company that's realizing their invention has been commoditized and is no longer a platform they control. Swarm was redesigned at one point to work more like Kubernetes because they realized it was a much saner model. Kubernetes has more complexity, but it does scale down to single-node clusters.

nimish 8y ago
I disagree. Kubernetes came out of Google, but has exploded in popularity due to its capability (which comes with extreme complexity): it can scale to extreme levels, but wrapping your head around it requires far more time and trouble for your most basic apps. Thus, you see the software consultants race to become the next Kubernetes experts, since choosing to deploy it essentially requires that you have dedicated professionals managing it (as Google does). Docker Swarm might be incomplete and missing quite a few features, and it won't scale to thousands of nodes with dozens of independent apps, but the use-cases I've seen are far from that. A single engineer can basically get a "good-enough" moderately scaled system going. If you have Google-scale problems with Google-caliber engineers and SREs backing you, use Kubernetes. Otherwise, using something else (Docker Swarm "just worked" for the cases I've seen) is easier.
- Draiken 8y ago
  If you can use docker swarm you can use Kubernetes. At that point k8s is just plain better. The core of Kubernetes is super simple and all the hard parts are hidden away on actually setting up and maintaining kubernetes the hard way on bare metal machines. Odds are, if you're doing that, you have the resources to take some time to dive deeper into how it works. I've done multiple single engineer Kubernetes setups that are working on production today. So far I've had only a few problems with it. I know it's not a huge data range, but I'm not the smartest person in the world (or a true infrastructure guy) and still found it easy to work with. Swarm has always been a rushed afterthought IMO. Although I have way less experience with it than k8s, so I'm biased on this.

erikb 8y ago

Why is this so heavily downvoted? A clear, legit opinion to have. In my experience it's even like this: I have never seen any working kubernetes app. But I deployed my own hello world docker swarm app in 2 days. (And that is a fact, not an opinion. The opinion part is up to you.)

nvarsj 8y ago
Because it's not remotely true, and is very cynical and biased without any evidence. k8s success isn't because of some consultancy marketing, it's because a lot of people are using it very successfully in production, myself included.
- erikb 8y ago
  Oh didn't know we are in the comedy channel here. A penguin walks into a bar, goes to the counter, and asks the bartender, "Have you seen my brother?" The bartender says, "I don't know. What does he look like?"