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> In particular - READ THIS In fact, do NOT read it. Do not take advice on HN (or any Internet forum) about situations involving safety; people on the Interne

> In particular - READ THIS In fact, do NOT read it. Do not take advice on HN (or any Internet forum) about situations involving safety; people on the Internet don't know what they are talking about, even when they sound competent or claim credentials (do I really need to say that?) and someone could get seriously hurt or killed. Unless you are an expert, you can't tell the good advice from the bad; find an authoritative source. And in fact, if you read further down the linked thread, someone asked an apparent professional about the advice; they did not give a favorable response and called part of it dangerous.

JshWright 8y ago
In this case the advise is spot on (i.e. don't get within arms reach of someone who is drowning unless you know what you're doing). I think warning people that the situation is more dangerous than it appears is consistent with your advice that you should rely on experts when possible. At the risk of "claiming credentials", I'm a paramedic with swift-water rescue training.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  In my experience, responsible professionals do not give free Internet advice in situations with potentially serious consequences. Serious situations require very carefully considered advice; you could leave something out or misstate something; it could be misconstrued - and someone dies. For much less dire situations, I don't give professional advice without giving it far more care than I give an HN comment. Authoritative sources are great. They probably bring to bear far more expertise than HN commenters, they've already performed all that careful consideration, and in many cases they've also tested how the information will be understood. Again, misunderstandings can be deadly. The proper response is not 'here's what to do'; it's 'here's a link to an excellent authoritative source'.
  - JshWright 8y ago
    I agree with your general premise. I disagree with your application of that premise here. In this case the comment is providing a warning that the situation is more dangerous than it appears. Someone reading that comment would be more likely to act conservatively, resulting in fewer deaths.
ColinWright 8y ago
By all means ignore it if you choose, and of course, feel free to warn people off it. However, if you read further down the HN thread the advice is reinforced multiple times. > natep : As a former lifeguard (certification has expired), I agree with btilly. > 3pt14159 : As a former Bronze Cross I also agree with btilly. There's more. And as a further data point, I've also undergone substantial amounts of training, and btilly's advice exactly matches what I was taught. So with respect, I repeat my advice that what btilly wrote pretty much nails it, and people should read it.
InclinedPlane 8y ago
The internet is not somehow magically unreal, take advice just as your would from any source. Evaluate it, double check it, etc. In this case the advice is good and worth keeping in mind. There's a reason lifeguards carry floatation aids and it's not just to give a little buoyancy advantage.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > In this case the advice is good and worth keeping in mind How do you know? You can find a population on the Internet that will tell you almost anything is a good idea, especially groups of people in the same online community. Anti-vaxxers come to mind.
  - JackCh 8y ago
    I can't speak for him but in my case I know that advice is good because it's an accurate summary of what I was taught in a Red Cross certification course. I can't prove that to you so your epistemological objection still stands, but if you're actually curious you can download the American Red Cross lifeguard manual here: https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/lifeguarding/lifeguard-preparation/lifeguard-manual https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/lifeguarding/lifeguard... Reading that manual is not a substitute for actual lifeguard training, but I expect you'll find it supports the general points made above. Specifically pages 161 and 198 confirm the advice "If they get hold of you, DIVE so they let go." In my personal opinion that's the most important advice in that comment since failing to free oneself from a drowning victim is the cause of many multiple-drownings. The Red Cross goes into specifics on how exactly you do it, and when you're receiving training you practice doing it with the other students or instructors, but that short summary is an accurate summary.
  - InclinedPlane 8y ago
    Because it's a subject I have knowledge of and the given information is an accurate summary of some of that knowledge? Facts aren't just floating out there in the aether, many of them are testable. There are also people on the internet who well tell you that vaccinations are helpful. Oh my gosh, how do you even know the truth on this crazy contraption? It's shocking that this problem of determining truth is entirely and wholly isolated to this one communications medium and no others isn't it? I guess you could always just wait for something on television to tell you the absolute truth.
rimliu 8y ago
> people on the Internet don't know what they > are talking about Is there some law that prevent experts from sharing their knowledge on the internet?
- astura 8y ago
  Problem is, a lot of non-experts give very, very bad advice very confidently. A layperson has no idea if someone on the internet is actually an expert giving good advice or is just spouting nonsense. I've see some incredibly bad advice here on HN.
woodandsteel 8y ago
I think it is very important to let everyone know what a drowning person looks like so that when they see one, they can scream for help from a professional. And yes, I am a trained life guard, though it was a long time ago.

JshWright 8y ago

In this case the advise is spot on (i.e. don't get within arms reach of someone who is drowning unless you know what you're doing). I think warning people that the situation is more dangerous than it appears is consistent with your advice that you should rely on experts when possible. At the risk of "claiming credentials", I'm a paramedic with swift-water rescue training.

forapurpose 8y ago
In my experience, responsible professionals do not give free Internet advice in situations with potentially serious consequences. Serious situations require very carefully considered advice; you could leave something out or misstate something; it could be misconstrued - and someone dies. For much less dire situations, I don't give professional advice without giving it far more care than I give an HN comment. Authoritative sources are great. They probably bring to bear far more expertise than HN commenters, they've already performed all that careful consideration, and in many cases they've also tested how the information will be understood. Again, misunderstandings can be deadly. The proper response is not 'here's what to do'; it's 'here's a link to an excellent authoritative source'.
- JshWright 8y ago
  I agree with your general premise. I disagree with your application of that premise here. In this case the comment is providing a warning that the situation is more dangerous than it appears. Someone reading that comment would be more likely to act conservatively, resulting in fewer deaths.

ColinWright 8y ago

By all means ignore it if you choose, and of course, feel free to warn people off it. However, if you read further down the HN thread the advice is reinforced multiple times. > natep : As a former lifeguard (certification has expired), I agree with btilly. > 3pt14159 : As a former Bronze Cross I also agree with btilly. There's more. And as a further data point, I've also undergone substantial amounts of training, and btilly's advice exactly matches what I was taught. So with respect, I repeat my advice that what btilly wrote pretty much nails it, and people should read it.

InclinedPlane 8y ago

The internet is not somehow magically unreal, take advice just as your would from any source. Evaluate it, double check it, etc. In this case the advice is good and worth keeping in mind. There's a reason lifeguards carry floatation aids and it's not just to give a little buoyancy advantage.

forapurpose 8y ago
> In this case the advice is good and worth keeping in mind How do you know? You can find a population on the Internet that will tell you almost anything is a good idea, especially groups of people in the same online community. Anti-vaxxers come to mind.
- JackCh 8y ago
  I can't speak for him but in my case I know that advice is good because it's an accurate summary of what I was taught in a Red Cross certification course. I can't prove that to you so your epistemological objection still stands, but if you're actually curious you can download the American Red Cross lifeguard manual here: https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/lifeguarding/lifeguard-preparation/lifeguard-manual https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/lifeguarding/lifeguard... Reading that manual is not a substitute for actual lifeguard training, but I expect you'll find it supports the general points made above. Specifically pages 161 and 198 confirm the advice "If they get hold of you, DIVE so they let go." In my personal opinion that's the most important advice in that comment since failing to free oneself from a drowning victim is the cause of many multiple-drownings. The Red Cross goes into specifics on how exactly you do it, and when you're receiving training you practice doing it with the other students or instructors, but that short summary is an accurate summary.
- InclinedPlane 8y ago
  Because it's a subject I have knowledge of and the given information is an accurate summary of some of that knowledge? Facts aren't just floating out there in the aether, many of them are testable. There are also people on the internet who well tell you that vaccinations are helpful. Oh my gosh, how do you even know the truth on this crazy contraption? It's shocking that this problem of determining truth is entirely and wholly isolated to this one communications medium and no others isn't it? I guess you could always just wait for something on television to tell you the absolute truth.

rimliu 8y ago

> people on the Internet don't know what they > are talking about Is there some law that prevent experts from sharing their knowledge on the internet?

astura 8y ago
Problem is, a lot of non-experts give very, very bad advice very confidently. A layperson has no idea if someone on the internet is actually an expert giving good advice or is just spouting nonsense. I've see some incredibly bad advice here on HN.

woodandsteel 8y ago

I think it is very important to let everyone know what a drowning person looks like so that when they see one, they can scream for help from a professional. And yes, I am a trained life guard, though it was a long time ago.