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By your logic entire concept of labour shortage is outrageous because any shortage will clear with high enough price. But for any job such as that of Truck driv

By your logic entire concept of labour shortage is outrageous because any shortage will clear with high enough price. But for any job such as that of Truck drive the market value of that job is only X. Paying more than X would mean you should look for alternatives and get out of that business. As the truck diver salaries go up cost of everything that relies on transportation also goes up marginally. Suddenly the struggling pistachio farmer will now find it even less economical to continue, Wallmart will have to raise prices of their goods and so on. All eventually leading up to poor people paying even more for their daily consumption items such as diapers and baby food. The brighter side of this is that the Truck driving as an occupation would be pretty much extinct in next 20 years as self driving trucks, hyperloops, cargo drones etc. will replace them or make them really low skill jobs.

yasp 8y ago
Yes. This is how a well functioning economy works.
- platz 8y ago
  exactly - if they truly have a trucking shortage, the prices of all the intermediaries will have to rise, including the end shelf-price. More short-term, Wallmart will either just discontinue that product or offer it elsewhere due to free movement of capital. We'll get just a couple brands of cereal at the supermarket, instead of 25.
  - Karishma1234 8y ago
    Yes. That is point I have been making.
    - platz 8y ago
      But you seem to think the price going up is a bad thing, when in fact it is simply supply and demand, and necessary for markets to function.
      - Karishma1234 8y ago
        Not really. OP was arguing that there are no shortages, the companies are not willing offer more. I pointed out that if we were to accept that logic then we might as well stop using the word "shortage" as every shortage is likely to clear up if you pay more. But the truck driver's worth is determined by market too so whenever someone says there is a shortage they mean shortage at a viable price point.
throwaway2048 8y ago
businesses are not entitled to cheap labour just so they can have cheaper products, sorry.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
> All eventually leading up to poor people paying even more for their daily consumption items such as diapers and baby food. Shareholders make less, consumers don't pay more, because you're still going to rather have your goods get to market versus not being in business. As many others in this thread have mentioned, there is no shortage. This is a narrative pushed by actors attempting to keep trucking wages low.
- jaggederest 8y ago
  The allocation of increased costs isn't as simple as "shareholders make less" or "consumers pay more". It depends on the number of buyers and sellers in that particular marketplace, with a sliding scale between monopsony and monopoly allocating respectively all the costs to the producer or consumer, combined with the elasticity of supply and demand for the goods and substitutes. For example, in rental markets, it's been shown that tax increases are almost entirely passed on to tenants.
CPLX 8y ago
If the prospect of mass unemployment and the infliction of considerable misery on a large portion of the population is considered "the brighter side" then your argument contains some pretty consequential unstated value judgements. What, exactly, is the point of commerce in the first place? Is it measured by some abstract efficiency metric or do real life humans figure into your analysis at all? If so, which humans count and which ones don't?
- Karishma1234 8y ago
  > What, exactly, is the point of commerce in the first place? Very good question. The point of commerce is that people be able to buy other people's time willingly for a rate they voluntarily negotiate. When you can buy someone else's time you save time for your own self to do something that interests you. Everyone time you fill gas in your car you are buying perhaps 0.5 seconds of a guy who chose to work on a Oil rig in Alaska and 1 second of a government servant in Washington DC working for Energy department. As long as people have free time there is never a problem of mass unemployment unless government makes it a crime to work on voluntarily negotiated terms.
  - CPLX 8y ago
    > there is never a problem of mass unemployment Except, of course, there often is.
  - Firadeoclus 8y ago
    Your definition seems to entirely ignore matter. It's not enough for people to have time on their hands, they also somehow need access to the means of production, the physical goods. And enough of them to actually survive.
rayiner 8y ago
> By your logic entire concept of labour shortage is outrageous The concept of an anything shortage in an efficient market is outrageous.
furgooswft13 8y ago
> Truck driving as an occupation would be pretty much extinct in next 20 years as self driving trucks I doubt it. Once off the highway trucks, given their size and ungainliness, have to perform maneuvers and general rule breaking to get around that I doubt any computer would be able to manage safely in 50 years at the very least. I've said before that self driving vehicles will be a great boon to truck drivers in the immediate future. It will allow them to relax, relatively, on the most tedious and mind numbing part of the job. Navigating small roads and loading/unloading cargo will still be a human job for awhile to come.
- Karishma1234 8y ago
  I used the term extinct in a sense that bank tellers are pretty much extinct today because % of transactions going through real human tellers is very low. Most people use ATMs and online banking. You correct to say that a lot of things about truck driving might not get 100% automated in next 20 years but many aspects will reducing the truck driver's salary and skill expectation. For example Wallmart or Amazon could build warehouses where trucks will be loaded and unloaded in 100% automatic fashion. For majority of the interstate driving trucks might simply go with minimal supervision and driver will have to take control only in 10% of total time. All this will make trucking less lucrative and less productive occupation. That is as good as extinction.
- dmortin 8y ago
  Truck drivers will still be needed off the highway, but their salaries will also be reduced if they have to drive, e.g., for only 10-20 percent of the way. They will only be helpers for the self driving truck, not the main drivers like today.
mrep 8y ago
> By your logic entire concept of labour shortage is outrageous because any shortage will clear with high enough price. Per wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortage#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortage#Causes In a perfect market (one that matches a simple microeconomic model), an excess of demand will prompt sellers to increase prices until demand at that price matches the available supply, establishing market equilibrium. In economic terminology, a shortage occurs when for some reason (such as government intervention, or decisions by sellers not to raise prices) the price does not rise to reach equilibrium. In this circumstance, buyers want to purchase more at the market price than the quantity of the good or service that is available, and some non-price mechanism (such as "first come, first served" or a lottery) determines which buyers are served. So in a perfect market the only thing that can cause a shortage is price. So while it can happen, 99% of the time these articles are just some company complaining about the cost of labour which they don't want to pay.

yasp 8y ago

Yes. This is how a well functioning economy works.

platz 8y ago
exactly - if they truly have a trucking shortage, the prices of all the intermediaries will have to rise, including the end shelf-price. More short-term, Wallmart will either just discontinue that product or offer it elsewhere due to free movement of capital. We'll get just a couple brands of cereal at the supermarket, instead of 25.
- Karishma1234 8y ago
  Yes. That is point I have been making.
  - platz 8y ago
    But you seem to think the price going up is a bad thing, when in fact it is simply supply and demand, and necessary for markets to function.
    - Karishma1234 8y ago
      Not really. OP was arguing that there are no shortages, the companies are not willing offer more. I pointed out that if we were to accept that logic then we might as well stop using the word "shortage" as every shortage is likely to clear up if you pay more. But the truck driver's worth is determined by market too so whenever someone says there is a shortage they mean shortage at a viable price point.

throwaway2048 8y ago

businesses are not entitled to cheap labour just so they can have cheaper products, sorry.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

> All eventually leading up to poor people paying even more for their daily consumption items such as diapers and baby food. Shareholders make less, consumers don't pay more, because you're still going to rather have your goods get to market versus not being in business. As many others in this thread have mentioned, there is no shortage. This is a narrative pushed by actors attempting to keep trucking wages low.

jaggederest 8y ago
The allocation of increased costs isn't as simple as "shareholders make less" or "consumers pay more". It depends on the number of buyers and sellers in that particular marketplace, with a sliding scale between monopsony and monopoly allocating respectively all the costs to the producer or consumer, combined with the elasticity of supply and demand for the goods and substitutes. For example, in rental markets, it's been shown that tax increases are almost entirely passed on to tenants.

CPLX 8y ago

If the prospect of mass unemployment and the infliction of considerable misery on a large portion of the population is considered "the brighter side" then your argument contains some pretty consequential unstated value judgements. What, exactly, is the point of commerce in the first place? Is it measured by some abstract efficiency metric or do real life humans figure into your analysis at all? If so, which humans count and which ones don't?

Karishma1234 8y ago
> What, exactly, is the point of commerce in the first place? Very good question. The point of commerce is that people be able to buy other people's time willingly for a rate they voluntarily negotiate. When you can buy someone else's time you save time for your own self to do something that interests you. Everyone time you fill gas in your car you are buying perhaps 0.5 seconds of a guy who chose to work on a Oil rig in Alaska and 1 second of a government servant in Washington DC working for Energy department. As long as people have free time there is never a problem of mass unemployment unless government makes it a crime to work on voluntarily negotiated terms.
- CPLX 8y ago
  > there is never a problem of mass unemployment Except, of course, there often is.
- Firadeoclus 8y ago
  Your definition seems to entirely ignore matter. It's not enough for people to have time on their hands, they also somehow need access to the means of production, the physical goods. And enough of them to actually survive.

rayiner 8y ago

> By your logic entire concept of labour shortage is outrageous The concept of an anything shortage in an efficient market is outrageous.

furgooswft13 8y ago

> Truck driving as an occupation would be pretty much extinct in next 20 years as self driving trucks I doubt it. Once off the highway trucks, given their size and ungainliness, have to perform maneuvers and general rule breaking to get around that I doubt any computer would be able to manage safely in 50 years at the very least. I've said before that self driving vehicles will be a great boon to truck drivers in the immediate future. It will allow them to relax, relatively, on the most tedious and mind numbing part of the job. Navigating small roads and loading/unloading cargo will still be a human job for awhile to come.

Karishma1234 8y ago
I used the term extinct in a sense that bank tellers are pretty much extinct today because % of transactions going through real human tellers is very low. Most people use ATMs and online banking. You correct to say that a lot of things about truck driving might not get 100% automated in next 20 years but many aspects will reducing the truck driver's salary and skill expectation. For example Wallmart or Amazon could build warehouses where trucks will be loaded and unloaded in 100% automatic fashion. For majority of the interstate driving trucks might simply go with minimal supervision and driver will have to take control only in 10% of total time. All this will make trucking less lucrative and less productive occupation. That is as good as extinction.
dmortin 8y ago
Truck drivers will still be needed off the highway, but their salaries will also be reduced if they have to drive, e.g., for only 10-20 percent of the way. They will only be helpers for the self driving truck, not the main drivers like today.

mrep 8y ago

> By your logic entire concept of labour shortage is outrageous because any shortage will clear with high enough price. Per wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortage#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortage#Causes In a perfect market (one that matches a simple microeconomic model), an excess of demand will prompt sellers to increase prices until demand at that price matches the available supply, establishing market equilibrium. In economic terminology, a shortage occurs when for some reason (such as government intervention, or decisions by sellers not to raise prices) the price does not rise to reach equilibrium. In this circumstance, buyers want to purchase more at the market price than the quantity of the good or service that is available, and some non-price mechanism (such as "first come, first served" or a lottery) determines which buyers are served. So in a perfect market the only thing that can cause a shortage is price. So while it can happen, 99% of the time these articles are just some company complaining about the cost of labour which they don't want to pay.