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It strikes me that anybody who says America is a "free" country is absolutely delusional. -America has the highest percentage of it's people locked up in jail

It strikes me that anybody who says America is a "free" country is absolutely delusional. -America has the highest percentage of it's people locked up in jail -People spend time in jail even though they are not convicted because they cannot post bail, which disproportionately punishes the the poor -The laws are so complex, and so many, almost everyone breaks the law multiple times a month. Enforcement is highly subjective and at the whim of prosecutors and law enforcement officials - This story

jessaustin 8y ago
By the time we leave public school we've heard the "freedom" spiel thousands of times. We hear it from the news, every time we turn it on. Some people listen to the news primarily so they can hear the repetition of the comfortable old litany. A relatively recent innovation is talking about foreigners who "hate us for our freedom", rather than e.g. for our bombs falling on their homes. It takes a lot of work to ignore reality so thoroughly.
- mrnobody_67 8y ago
  "It takes a lot of work to ignore reality so thoroughly." America seems to have done a good job indoctrinating the belief though, starting at a very young age. Even press freedom, is arguably relatively poor: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking Objectively, US is 45th on the list, below Lithuania, Czech Republic, Trinidad, Jamaica and Namibia. Not even top 20% in terms of press freedom! But if you ask most people, they would say US is #1 (or at least top 10) in the world.
  - allthenews 8y ago
    What are the criteria used to rank journalistic freedom?
    - admiralpumpkin 8y ago
      https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology Two clicks.
  - burfog 8y ago
    Any press freedom list that would place the UK above the US is broken. The UK just arrested a reporter, then ordered a ban on all news coverage of the incident. Sweden being up at #2 is laughable nonsense. Germany should also be much lower. I think we can dismiss this one, sorry.
    - tomjakubowski 8y ago
      US courts have arrested plenty of reporters for contempt, in recent years too.
      - burfog 8y ago
        For an implied prior restraint on speech? Not so much I think. The UK arrests reporters for reporting. This isn't just about libel (also much more problematic in the UK) or revealing sources. It's about plain old honest reporting of factual events that occur out in public. A reporter reports on people heading into a courthouse, and he gets sent to prison for 13 months. The court then orders that nobody can report on the reporter's arrest either. If not for non-UK web sites ignoring the order, it would be a secret arrest.
        Latteland 8y ago
        But this was ordinary contempt of court for not reporting about an ongoing trial until it was complete. It's a long standing govt right in the UK. Was there anything unusual about this case?
        tropo 8y ago
        If it isn't unusual, then that only supports the idea that freedom of press is lower in the UK.
        Latteland 8y ago
        I think freedom of the press is lower there in the uk. Plus they it's too easy to win a suit for libel there.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    "The press" is so thoroughly compromised here that "press freedom" can be a bit of a distraction. I watched a "national" newscast yesterday with my dad; it was 100% local-type "news": fires, car accidents, human interest, etc. Meanwhile we're in multiple wars and are theoretically in negotiations to avoid multiple other wars. Meanwhile the big banks we bailed out are bigger than ever. Meanwhile we have more people in prison than any other nation on Earth, in the history of Earth. Etc. Did some judge or other official order NBC Nightly News to do such a thoroughly shitty job? Of course not, but that doesn't mean they're aren't incentives of some sort coming from the State. If I want to know what our military or TLAs are doing, I don't consult an American source. This isn't a conspiracy; it is simply the case that American media conglomerates have decided they make more money catering to the shallow. It's not a problem for thoughtful news consumers: there are lots of other places for news. Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think our courts are so far gone that they're going to let anyone shut out TI, AJ, RT, various independent journalists, etc. Even if the courts did go along with such an effort, it seems doomed to fail. That isn't to say that journalists have nothing to complain about. Telling the truth isn't the way to succeed in this field, at this time.
icantdrive55 8y ago
It's like poor, middle class Americans have been slow-played against their our self-interests? Make the system so regulated, with so many laws; the only ones truly living a relatively free life are the wealthy. I've seen it get worse with the internet, and the cheap cameras everywhere. The average American still thinks they are in the best system, but they are a paycheck, or minor life emergency of being told can't use the bathrooms. If I had a do over, I would have gone to France in my twenties. I do find most wealthy people ablosute hypocritical, parasites. Yea--we're not suspose to judge, but that's all the power we have left? In a weird way, it's a beautiful con job we have been ensnared in? (And yes Trump relaxed a few regulations. Regulations that affect the wealthy.)
superkuh 8y ago
All those things are true and yet the freedom you mock isn't a delusion. It's just not evenly distributed. And that's the key idea of the USA. Instead of concentrating on using government force to ensure equal outcomes for everyone instead it's about equal opportunities in a free for all. Free to fail and free to succeed. There's a lot of extremes here and the USA is a much larger, more heterogeneous place than many imagine from watching the exported news and media. re: this story, for example: nothing like this exists in states that are not on the southern border. From state to state there are huge differences in culture, demographics, and governance.
- vvanders 8y ago
  > nothing like this exists in states that are not on the southern border. Are you sure about that? Pretty certain I've seen articles covering similar stories up in Montana and like. [Edit] Here's at least one that was easy to find offhand: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-montana-border-patrol-20180521-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-montana-border-patrol-20...
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  about equal opportunities in a free for all. Free to fail and free to succeed. But that's self-evidently not the case. Formal and informal discrimination massively limit participation, and quite often commercial success is rooted in an ability to dump externalities rather than create value.
  - roenxi 8y ago
    Perfect can be the enemy of good, in the sense that in a city of people there must be compromises so that everyone can coexist in a small space. Sure, the US isn't fair. In practice it is grossly unfair. But talk to anyone with, eg, a congenital disability and it is apparent that this isn't because the US is doing something wrong, it is because life is unfair. The US is very free. Some people have to work orders of magnitude harder to excercise their freedom, but in freedom of speech and action the US compares well with, eg, the UK, China, Russia, Middle Eastern countries, etc, etc. There are a few very small nations (eg, Luxembourg, Sweden, New Zealand, etc), where the numbers are smaller and the results are arguably better. But recall that human communities are governed by absolute numbers (see Dunbar's number) and reflect that the US does pretty well for its size. Basically, don't conflate freedom and fairness. The US has a lot of freedom, but freedom is a pretty basic idea, and exercising it is crazy hard for some people.
DanielRibeiro 8y ago
That's pretty much Ava DuVernay's argument on her documentary "The 13th": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V66F3WU2CKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V66F3WU2CKk

jessaustin 8y ago

By the time we leave public school we've heard the "freedom" spiel thousands of times. We hear it from the news, every time we turn it on. Some people listen to the news primarily so they can hear the repetition of the comfortable old litany. A relatively recent innovation is talking about foreigners who "hate us for our freedom", rather than e.g. for our bombs falling on their homes. It takes a lot of work to ignore reality so thoroughly.

mrnobody_67 8y ago
"It takes a lot of work to ignore reality so thoroughly." America seems to have done a good job indoctrinating the belief though, starting at a very young age. Even press freedom, is arguably relatively poor: https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking Objectively, US is 45th on the list, below Lithuania, Czech Republic, Trinidad, Jamaica and Namibia. Not even top 20% in terms of press freedom! But if you ask most people, they would say US is #1 (or at least top 10) in the world.
- allthenews 8y ago
  What are the criteria used to rank journalistic freedom?
  - admiralpumpkin 8y ago
    https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology Two clicks.
- burfog 8y ago
  Any press freedom list that would place the UK above the US is broken. The UK just arrested a reporter, then ordered a ban on all news coverage of the incident. Sweden being up at #2 is laughable nonsense. Germany should also be much lower. I think we can dismiss this one, sorry.
  - tomjakubowski 8y ago
    US courts have arrested plenty of reporters for contempt, in recent years too.
    - burfog 8y ago
      For an implied prior restraint on speech? Not so much I think. The UK arrests reporters for reporting. This isn't just about libel (also much more problematic in the UK) or revealing sources. It's about plain old honest reporting of factual events that occur out in public. A reporter reports on people heading into a courthouse, and he gets sent to prison for 13 months. The court then orders that nobody can report on the reporter's arrest either. If not for non-UK web sites ignoring the order, it would be a secret arrest.
      - Latteland 8y ago
        But this was ordinary contempt of court for not reporting about an ongoing trial until it was complete. It's a long standing govt right in the UK. Was there anything unusual about this case?
        tropo 8y ago
        If it isn't unusual, then that only supports the idea that freedom of press is lower in the UK.
        Latteland 8y ago
        I think freedom of the press is lower there in the uk. Plus they it's too easy to win a suit for libel there.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  "The press" is so thoroughly compromised here that "press freedom" can be a bit of a distraction. I watched a "national" newscast yesterday with my dad; it was 100% local-type "news": fires, car accidents, human interest, etc. Meanwhile we're in multiple wars and are theoretically in negotiations to avoid multiple other wars. Meanwhile the big banks we bailed out are bigger than ever. Meanwhile we have more people in prison than any other nation on Earth, in the history of Earth. Etc. Did some judge or other official order NBC Nightly News to do such a thoroughly shitty job? Of course not, but that doesn't mean they're aren't incentives of some sort coming from the State. If I want to know what our military or TLAs are doing, I don't consult an American source. This isn't a conspiracy; it is simply the case that American media conglomerates have decided they make more money catering to the shallow. It's not a problem for thoughtful news consumers: there are lots of other places for news. Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think our courts are so far gone that they're going to let anyone shut out TI, AJ, RT, various independent journalists, etc. Even if the courts did go along with such an effort, it seems doomed to fail. That isn't to say that journalists have nothing to complain about. Telling the truth isn't the way to succeed in this field, at this time.

icantdrive55 8y ago

It's like poor, middle class Americans have been slow-played against their our self-interests? Make the system so regulated, with so many laws; the only ones truly living a relatively free life are the wealthy. I've seen it get worse with the internet, and the cheap cameras everywhere. The average American still thinks they are in the best system, but they are a paycheck, or minor life emergency of being told can't use the bathrooms. If I had a do over, I would have gone to France in my twenties. I do find most wealthy people ablosute hypocritical, parasites. Yea--we're not suspose to judge, but that's all the power we have left? In a weird way, it's a beautiful con job we have been ensnared in? (And yes Trump relaxed a few regulations. Regulations that affect the wealthy.)

superkuh 8y ago

All those things are true and yet the freedom you mock isn't a delusion. It's just not evenly distributed. And that's the key idea of the USA. Instead of concentrating on using government force to ensure equal outcomes for everyone instead it's about equal opportunities in a free for all. Free to fail and free to succeed. There's a lot of extremes here and the USA is a much larger, more heterogeneous place than many imagine from watching the exported news and media. re: this story, for example: nothing like this exists in states that are not on the southern border. From state to state there are huge differences in culture, demographics, and governance.

vvanders 8y ago
> nothing like this exists in states that are not on the southern border. Are you sure about that? Pretty certain I've seen articles covering similar stories up in Montana and like. [Edit] Here's at least one that was easy to find offhand: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-montana-border-patrol-20180521-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-montana-border-patrol-20...
anigbrowl 8y ago
about equal opportunities in a free for all. Free to fail and free to succeed. But that's self-evidently not the case. Formal and informal discrimination massively limit participation, and quite often commercial success is rooted in an ability to dump externalities rather than create value.
- roenxi 8y ago
  Perfect can be the enemy of good, in the sense that in a city of people there must be compromises so that everyone can coexist in a small space. Sure, the US isn't fair. In practice it is grossly unfair. But talk to anyone with, eg, a congenital disability and it is apparent that this isn't because the US is doing something wrong, it is because life is unfair. The US is very free. Some people have to work orders of magnitude harder to excercise their freedom, but in freedom of speech and action the US compares well with, eg, the UK, China, Russia, Middle Eastern countries, etc, etc. There are a few very small nations (eg, Luxembourg, Sweden, New Zealand, etc), where the numbers are smaller and the results are arguably better. But recall that human communities are governed by absolute numbers (see Dunbar's number) and reflect that the US does pretty well for its size. Basically, don't conflate freedom and fairness. The US has a lot of freedom, but freedom is a pretty basic idea, and exercising it is crazy hard for some people.

DanielRibeiro 8y ago

That's pretty much Ava DuVernay's argument on her documentary "The 13th": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V66F3WU2CKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V66F3WU2CKk