6 ms·

are there privacy concerns here?

by aae42 8y ago

freehunter 8y ago
The question is could you identify any usable DNA from this waste? And I would expect the answer to be no looking at the bottles. It's a slurry mix of everyone's waste (human or otherwise, lots of stuff gets washed down the drain), so tracing a positive hit on drugs back to the house or person it came from seems like it would be exceedingly difficult to do. The best you could do is narrow it down to any homes upstream of sample collection, which could be a single neighborhood or an entire city. Or it could be a drifter peeing straight into the sewer grate who doesn't even live in the city.
- dustfinger 8y ago
  Also Hypochlorous acid reacts, albeit slowly, with DNA and RNA. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid#Reaction_with_DNA_and_nucleotides https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid#Reaction_w... That fact might make any DNA matching inconclusive.
- opportune 8y ago
  Yes, to an extent. Not sure how many individuals’ DNA ends up in a given sewage sample http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18769715 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18769715
tomjen3 8y ago
Good question. Well if you mix an entire suburb or city block? Probably not, but I imagine that there could be some issues when those robots become cheap enough that you can get it down to house level. Even if you cannot monitor all houses everywhere you could sample houses. And you wouldn't want that, because then your sample data becomes useless and people start to shit in their back yards, or in public parks. That said I am still looking for the toilet that does urin analyses ala The Island, I just only want it to tell me, and let me choose to inform my doctor.
- vuln 8y ago
  People don't normally shit in their backyard? Now I know why the elderly gentleman next door keeps glaring at me at 530 am.
- dustfinger 8y ago
  > I just only want it to tell me, and let me choose to inform my doctor. I totally agree. It would be wonderful if there was an inexpensive device (it doesn't need to be a toilet) that could perform thorough health analysis, but inform only the user and not any third party. i.e. no Dr or pharmaceutical companies, the producer or manufacturer, the user's insurance broker, ad / marketing companies etc. Absolutely nobody but the user. I want to trust technology like this because it could perform a profound public good, but untrustworthy companies keep being identified that have ulterior motives (for all sorts of technology, not this specifically).
  - xori 8y ago
    It's going to have to contact a 3rd party to download the latest health diagnostics/flu of the week/software updates. And speaking of "public good" it would be extremely beneficial to scientists and doctors if that information was made available to them. And beneficial to you, because that device could be improved to give you a better, more informed diagnosis. The question is what do you care more about, your health? Or your insurance premium? EDIT: Of course you would want to anonymize it, but you could only go so far while making it still useful. If you unfocused it to a neighbourhood, insurance premiums would go up for bad areas, and the housing market would fluctuate with the health of it's residence. On the upside, cities and landowners would be incentivized to now care about the health of their residents. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - dustfinger 8y ago
      Thank you for your input. You brought up some important points. > On the upside, cities and landowners would be incentivized to now care about the health of their residents. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That would be an interesting consequence.
notatoad 8y ago
This is HN, somebody will have a privacy concern
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  Anyone who is at all security conscious will have privacy concerns when (potentially) personal data is involved. Nothing wrong with that.
  - elvirs 8y ago
    there is no personal data in public sewer
    - B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
      The public sewer extends right up to each building ... like trash collection, already used for data gathering.
unethical_ban 8y ago
No. Long answer: Not really. If it is aggregated to a point that you can't tell who it's coming from specifically, it seems like less of a worry. If they installed it at each toilet... different. Also - I'm okay with it as long as it is not used to issue warrants. I would take another look at it if they did.
brigade 8y ago
In the US, there's no expectation of privacy in stuff you've discarded.
- aae42 8y ago
  Guess I better start saving all my poop
  - dustfinger 8y ago
    LOL! Thanks for that one. It has been a long day and you just gave me my first reason to laugh.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
I can absolutely see police forces using this data to target law enforcement to specific suburbs or blocks, based on the concentration of drugs and metabolites in the wastewater.

are there privacy concerns here?

by aae42 8y ago

are there privacy concerns here?

The question is could you identify any usable DNA from this waste? And I would expect the answer to be no looking at the bottles. It's a slurry mix of everyone's waste (human or otherwise, lots of stuff gets washed down the drain), so tracing a positive hit on drugs back to the house or person it came from seems like it would be exceedingly difficult to do. The best you could do is narrow it down to any homes upstream of sample collection, which could be a single neighborhood or an entire city. Or it could be a drifter peeing straight into the sewer grate who doesn't even live in the city.

dustfinger 8y ago
Also Hypochlorous acid reacts, albeit slowly, with DNA and RNA. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid#Reaction_with_DNA_and_nucleotides https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid#Reaction_w... That fact might make any DNA matching inconclusive.
opportune 8y ago
Yes, to an extent. Not sure how many individuals’ DNA ends up in a given sewage sample http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18769715 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18769715

tomjen3 8y ago

Good question. Well if you mix an entire suburb or city block? Probably not, but I imagine that there could be some issues when those robots become cheap enough that you can get it down to house level. Even if you cannot monitor all houses everywhere you could sample houses. And you wouldn't want that, because then your sample data becomes useless and people start to shit in their back yards, or in public parks. That said I am still looking for the toilet that does urin analyses ala The Island, I just only want it to tell me, and let me choose to inform my doctor.

vuln 8y ago
People don't normally shit in their backyard? Now I know why the elderly gentleman next door keeps glaring at me at 530 am.
dustfinger 8y ago
> I just only want it to tell me, and let me choose to inform my doctor. I totally agree. It would be wonderful if there was an inexpensive device (it doesn't need to be a toilet) that could perform thorough health analysis, but inform only the user and not any third party. i.e. no Dr or pharmaceutical companies, the producer or manufacturer, the user's insurance broker, ad / marketing companies etc. Absolutely nobody but the user. I want to trust technology like this because it could perform a profound public good, but untrustworthy companies keep being identified that have ulterior motives (for all sorts of technology, not this specifically).
- xori 8y ago
  It's going to have to contact a 3rd party to download the latest health diagnostics/flu of the week/software updates. And speaking of "public good" it would be extremely beneficial to scientists and doctors if that information was made available to them. And beneficial to you, because that device could be improved to give you a better, more informed diagnosis. The question is what do you care more about, your health? Or your insurance premium? EDIT: Of course you would want to anonymize it, but you could only go so far while making it still useful. If you unfocused it to a neighbourhood, insurance premiums would go up for bad areas, and the housing market would fluctuate with the health of it's residence. On the upside, cities and landowners would be incentivized to now care about the health of their residents. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - dustfinger 8y ago
    Thank you for your input. You brought up some important points. > On the upside, cities and landowners would be incentivized to now care about the health of their residents. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That would be an interesting consequence.

notatoad 8y ago

This is HN, somebody will have a privacy concern

TimTheTinker 8y ago
Anyone who is at all security conscious will have privacy concerns when (potentially) personal data is involved. Nothing wrong with that.
- elvirs 8y ago
  there is no personal data in public sewer
  - B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
    The public sewer extends right up to each building ... like trash collection, already used for data gathering.

unethical_ban 8y ago

No. Long answer: Not really. If it is aggregated to a point that you can't tell who it's coming from specifically, it seems like less of a worry. If they installed it at each toilet... different. Also - I'm okay with it as long as it is not used to issue warrants. I would take another look at it if they did.

brigade 8y ago

In the US, there's no expectation of privacy in stuff you've discarded.

aae42 8y ago
Guess I better start saving all my poop
- dustfinger 8y ago
  LOL! Thanks for that one. It has been a long day and you just gave me my first reason to laugh.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

I can absolutely see police forces using this data to target law enforcement to specific suburbs or blocks, based on the concentration of drugs and metabolites in the wastewater.