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Rebuttal from Slate: https://slate.com/business/2018/05/forget-the-atlantics-9-9-percent-the-1-percent-are-still-the-problem.html?via=gdpr-consent https://slat

by p49k 8y ago

Rebuttal from Slate: https://slate.com/business/2018/05/forget-the-atlantics-9-9-percent-the-1-percent-are-still-the-problem.html?via=gdpr-consent https://slate.com/business/2018/05/forget-the-atlantics-9-9-...

sologoub 8y ago
Key paragraph: “He neglects to mention that many of them are actually just retirees. According to Saez and Zucman, whose data Stewart uses, more than 40 percent of all wealth belonging to Americans between and 90th and 99th percentiles is held by the the elderly, meaning age 65 or older. This is what makes wealth data a tricky way to measure class below the very tiptop of the distribution. Stewart’s “9.9 percent” includes a lot of working professionals and business owners with gilded academic résumés, sure. But it also probably encompasses a lot of 75-year-old former accountants and nurses and guys with construction businesses who made a comfortable living decades ago, bought a house, and paid down the mortgage while saving for retirement. There’s no real way to tell a consistent story about who these people are, which makes it a bit hard to blame them for the death of opportunity in this country.”
- refurb 8y ago
  This is a great rebuttal. We seem to ignore that wealth changes over a person's life. When average wages are dropping, are they actually dropping or are wealthy people leaving the workforce at a greater rate than lower income people (just starting their careers) entering it? Kind of what we'd expect when the baby boomers retire, no?
  - DrPhish 8y ago
    Census Canada has an income explorer that includes wealth percentiles by age (and sex, by province etc) http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-vd/inc-rev/index-eng.cfm http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-... It's quite a stark difference in the percentiles from 20 to 40 to 60. Slate is absolutely right that without further controls for things like age, these percentiles are misleading
- dcre 8y ago
  That doesn’t really undermine the idea that this is a set of citizens who systematically block egalitarian social change. There are many mechanisms through which that happens — local government and real estate just as much as elite academic and cultural institutions.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  I don’t think that is a fair rebuttal. There has been a systemic transfer of wealth from the young to the older. Social Security and pensions get funded; universities and schools do not.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    The whole she distribution gets brought up all the time, but wealth inequality is extreme in each age group. Wealth inequality isn't a lifecycle thing where it's either dominated by generational transfers or accumulation over lifetime. See, e.g., http://www.demos.org/blog/9/8/14/wealth-distributed-extremely-unevenly-within-every-age-group http://www.demos.org/blog/9/8/14/wealth-distributed-extremel...
  - bhawks 8y ago
    Citation needed? Education is the 2nd largest expenditure in California: https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_CA_statelocal https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_CA_statel... Number 1 expenditure in Texas: https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_TX_statelocal https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_TX_statel... People perceive education to be underfunded, but digging at the data it definitely is one of the Government's highest spending priorities...
    - roywiggins 8y ago
      Student loan growth is arguably a decent proxy. Entire generations coming out of school with negative wealth is a pretty new thing.
      - bhawks 8y ago
        Does this amount to a systemic transfer of wealth from young to old (OP's complaint?)? Student loan growth correlates to the (seemingly unbounded) rise of college costs, along with the willingness of the Government to back loans for them? I'd argue that college costs are rising specifically because it's so easy for students to get loans because of Government intervention. :( Also to be considered is that it used to be the case that entire generations did not go to college (in fact we're only at 30% of folks now...).
- almostApatriot1 8y ago
  what's so key about that? I and many others know that the Baby Boomers hoarded wealth to create their own class that is very hard to enter into. You can certainly 'blame' them when it comes to things like Prop 13 and their inability to protect social security for future generations.
pahkah 8y ago
Thanks for the link! I don't think the rebuttal makes a fair characterization of Stewart's article. Slate's argument comes down to "Stewart is taking his eyes off the prize, asking us to focus on the 9.9% when the 1% are really the problem" but I didn't interpret the Atlantic piece as implying that those at the very top are innocent in all this. It was more saying that the upper class (9.9%) have been complicit as the top 0.1% have garnered an increasingly vast portion of wealth. Stewart is asking those in the 9.9% to be more cognizant of those below them, to stop looking up at the 0.1% and realize that the actions they take to improve the outcomes for their children are reducing income mobility.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  Asking is totally not constructive. What is his plan? Without that the piece is worthless blame shifting. Calls to action are pointless when no action is suggested. Or is he asking us to figure it out? That worked well so far... /s

by p49k 8y ago

sologoub 8y ago

Key paragraph: “He neglects to mention that many of them are actually just retirees. According to Saez and Zucman, whose data Stewart uses, more than 40 percent of all wealth belonging to Americans between and 90th and 99th percentiles is held by the the elderly, meaning age 65 or older. This is what makes wealth data a tricky way to measure class below the very tiptop of the distribution. Stewart’s “9.9 percent” includes a lot of working professionals and business owners with gilded academic résumés, sure. But it also probably encompasses a lot of 75-year-old former accountants and nurses and guys with construction businesses who made a comfortable living decades ago, bought a house, and paid down the mortgage while saving for retirement. There’s no real way to tell a consistent story about who these people are, which makes it a bit hard to blame them for the death of opportunity in this country.”

refurb 8y ago
This is a great rebuttal. We seem to ignore that wealth changes over a person's life. When average wages are dropping, are they actually dropping or are wealthy people leaving the workforce at a greater rate than lower income people (just starting their careers) entering it? Kind of what we'd expect when the baby boomers retire, no?
- DrPhish 8y ago
  Census Canada has an income explorer that includes wealth percentiles by age (and sex, by province etc) http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-vd/inc-rev/index-eng.cfm http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/dv-... It's quite a stark difference in the percentiles from 20 to 40 to 60. Slate is absolutely right that without further controls for things like age, these percentiles are misleading
dcre 8y ago
That doesn’t really undermine the idea that this is a set of citizens who systematically block egalitarian social change. There are many mechanisms through which that happens — local government and real estate just as much as elite academic and cultural institutions.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
I don’t think that is a fair rebuttal. There has been a systemic transfer of wealth from the young to the older. Social Security and pensions get funded; universities and schools do not.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  The whole she distribution gets brought up all the time, but wealth inequality is extreme in each age group. Wealth inequality isn't a lifecycle thing where it's either dominated by generational transfers or accumulation over lifetime. See, e.g., http://www.demos.org/blog/9/8/14/wealth-distributed-extremely-unevenly-within-every-age-group http://www.demos.org/blog/9/8/14/wealth-distributed-extremel...
- bhawks 8y ago
  Citation needed? Education is the 2nd largest expenditure in California: https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_CA_statelocal https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_CA_statel... Number 1 expenditure in Texas: https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_TX_statelocal https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/piechart_2018_TX_statel... People perceive education to be underfunded, but digging at the data it definitely is one of the Government's highest spending priorities...
  - roywiggins 8y ago
    Student loan growth is arguably a decent proxy. Entire generations coming out of school with negative wealth is a pretty new thing.
    - bhawks 8y ago
      Does this amount to a systemic transfer of wealth from young to old (OP's complaint?)? Student loan growth correlates to the (seemingly unbounded) rise of college costs, along with the willingness of the Government to back loans for them? I'd argue that college costs are rising specifically because it's so easy for students to get loans because of Government intervention. :( Also to be considered is that it used to be the case that entire generations did not go to college (in fact we're only at 30% of folks now...).
almostApatriot1 8y ago
what's so key about that? I and many others know that the Baby Boomers hoarded wealth to create their own class that is very hard to enter into. You can certainly 'blame' them when it comes to things like Prop 13 and their inability to protect social security for future generations.

pahkah 8y ago

Thanks for the link! I don't think the rebuttal makes a fair characterization of Stewart's article. Slate's argument comes down to "Stewart is taking his eyes off the prize, asking us to focus on the 9.9% when the 1% are really the problem" but I didn't interpret the Atlantic piece as implying that those at the very top are innocent in all this. It was more saying that the upper class (9.9%) have been complicit as the top 0.1% have garnered an increasingly vast portion of wealth. Stewart is asking those in the 9.9% to be more cognizant of those below them, to stop looking up at the 0.1% and realize that the actions they take to improve the outcomes for their children are reducing income mobility.

AstralStorm 8y ago
Asking is totally not constructive. What is his plan? Without that the piece is worthless blame shifting. Calls to action are pointless when no action is suggested. Or is he asking us to figure it out? That worked well so far... /s