6 ms·

Remember the Vasa [pdf]

38 points by nikbackm 8y ago

jepler 8y ago
Sadly, C++11 (and C++03, really) is too complicated for a typical "ordinary programmer" to grasp all the bits of it and how they potentially interrelate. [source: I am posing as an "ordinary programmer" for the purposes of this comment] C++14, 17, and 20 do seem to add, as Bjarne says, "significant ... complexity" to what has always been a daunting language. 150 experts--C++ experts, to be sure, but also domain experts--all bringing new features that address their personal itch for the language.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Other languages are complicated too. Just compare Java 10, C# 7.3, Python 3.6, .... to their initial designs. However I do agree with you and Bjarne, having also submitted this link awhile ago. C++20 should have been fixing what was left from C++17, specially regarding concepts and modules. Instead there are a plethora of other issues, and some of them it isn't even clear what is coming with C++23.
nixpulvis 8y ago
I'm glad this is one of those posts that is repeatedly posted here. It speaks to a trend across basically all industries these days, and to a more philosophical origin. Growth and progress for the sake of growth and progress is actually the opposite.
- majewsky 8y ago
  Progress (even for the sake of progress) is good if (huge if) you're working with the correct definition of progress. I want more progress towards perfection in the manner of the familiar quote: "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
gjvc 8y ago
"We are on the path to something that could destroy C++. We must get off that path!" Bjarne has spoken, and his warning should be heeded.
Tomte 8y ago
When you are in Stockholm, go visit the Vasamuseet! I‘m not terribly keen on museums, but I visit it every single time. The sheer amount of art on the ship is breathtaking. And the story of the ship is more fascinating than the short excerpt here shows.
- ASalazarMX 8y ago
  Visited it two years ago. It is humbling to see a ship that size and beauty, although partially restored, it speaks of its time. For some reason I never made the correlation between overengineering and the Vasa. I probably classified it subconsciously as a front-end issue.
Exras 8y ago
I wondered if this thread was about C++ since that is the only connection I heard 'Remember the Vasa. It's from watching this: Scott Mayers - Why C++ Sails When the Vasa Sank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltCgzYcpFUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltCgzYcpFUI Full circle ?
jejones3141 8y ago
I think the relevant idiom is "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted".
- signa11 8y ago
  this i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#Criticism is also pretty poignant

38 points by nikbackm 8y ago

Sadly, C++11 (and C++03, really) is too complicated for a typical "ordinary programmer" to grasp all the bits of it and how they potentially interrelate. [source: I am posing as an "ordinary programmer" for the purposes of this comment] C++14, 17, and 20 do seem to add, as Bjarne says, "significant ... complexity" to what has always been a daunting language. 150 experts--C++ experts, to be sure, but also domain experts--all bringing new features that address their personal itch for the language.

pjmlp 8y ago
Other languages are complicated too. Just compare Java 10, C# 7.3, Python 3.6, .... to their initial designs. However I do agree with you and Bjarne, having also submitted this link awhile ago. C++20 should have been fixing what was left from C++17, specially regarding concepts and modules. Instead there are a plethora of other issues, and some of them it isn't even clear what is coming with C++23.

nixpulvis 8y ago

I'm glad this is one of those posts that is repeatedly posted here. It speaks to a trend across basically all industries these days, and to a more philosophical origin. Growth and progress for the sake of growth and progress is actually the opposite.

majewsky 8y ago
Progress (even for the sake of progress) is good if (huge if) you're working with the correct definition of progress. I want more progress towards perfection in the manner of the familiar quote: "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

gjvc 8y ago

"We are on the path to something that could destroy C++. We must get off that path!" Bjarne has spoken, and his warning should be heeded.

Tomte 8y ago

When you are in Stockholm, go visit the Vasamuseet! I‘m not terribly keen on museums, but I visit it every single time. The sheer amount of art on the ship is breathtaking. And the story of the ship is more fascinating than the short excerpt here shows.

ASalazarMX 8y ago
Visited it two years ago. It is humbling to see a ship that size and beauty, although partially restored, it speaks of its time. For some reason I never made the correlation between overengineering and the Vasa. I probably classified it subconsciously as a front-end issue.

Exras 8y ago

I wondered if this thread was about C++ since that is the only connection I heard 'Remember the Vasa. It's from watching this: Scott Mayers - Why C++ Sails When the Vasa Sank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltCgzYcpFUI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltCgzYcpFUI Full circle ?

jejones3141 8y ago

I think the relevant idiom is "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted".

signa11 8y ago
this i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#Criticism is also pretty poignant