4 ms·

I don't know whether Intel did this or not, but the point is that you can't assume the intent by the result alone Would you feel differently if the case were a

by 300bps 8y ago

I don't know whether Intel did this or not, but the point is that you can't assume the intent by the result alone Would you feel differently if the case were about race instead of age? For example, if Intel laid off a population of people that was 22% African American while the population of the people remaining in the company was 10% African American, would you feel the same way?

rdl 8y ago
Isn’t the argument that women and racial minorities are “paid less for the same work”? In which case laying off white and asian men would presumably be the economically efficient choice? (I definitely think such a gap has existed at various times and places. There was a UK enterprise software firm founded by a women which hired mainly stay at home mothers and did amazingly well.)
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  No it seems to me he's making a totally different argument which no one here is actually addressing. Why should we care about intention? The purpose of a system is what it does[0] so if Intel's 'hiring and firing' system systematically removes older people who cares about The Reason that managers give? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...
andreareina 8y ago
We have a societally-accepted reason for older people to earn more -- experience, responsibility, and time-in-grade are correlated both age and pay. The same cannot be said for race or sex.
- rdl 8y ago
  If the job is something with such a steep learning curve and plateau (maybe due to periodic technical revolutions?) that someone with 20 years experience is only insignificantly better than someone with 5 years experience, economics would support paying them the same. If we want to artificially subsidize some more expensive older workers, they should be subsidized directly by society, not by forcing employers to do so. (There are a lot of jobs where 20 years gives better performance, or where being 51% good va 50% good would be worth a huge premium, but not all.) Where this really gets complex is startups which are growing in headcount and shrinking in equity offer size. An early hire there might be objectively worse than a new marginal hire but has an equity vesting package which makes him vastly better paid for each month today. IIRC it was Zynga which tried to forcibly renegotiate this (instead of just firing people who were presently underperforming, the usual route).
  - sgift 8y ago
    > If the job is something with such a steep learning curve and plateau (maybe due to periodic technical revolutions?) that someone with 20 years experience is only insignificantly better than someone with 5 years experience, economics would support paying them the same. Good news then that this isn't how tech jobs work, where about 99% of all "technical revolutions" are just renaming old things which had fallen out of fashion and use them again.
    - rbanffy 8y ago
      > about 99% of all "technical revolutions" are just renaming old things which had fallen out of fashion and use them again Remember how thrilled web developers were when they discovered MVC the last couple times?
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    Fine but then don't create housing bubbles that lock lower paid younger workers out of the market. I have to relocate in the not too distant future because local rent and home prices eclipse my frozen salary.
0xTJ 8y ago
You're completely ignoring the justification given, and it's a lot more difficult to translate the full situation to your analogy.

by 300bps 8y ago

rdl 8y ago

Isn’t the argument that women and racial minorities are “paid less for the same work”? In which case laying off white and asian men would presumably be the economically efficient choice? (I definitely think such a gap has existed at various times and places. There was a UK enterprise software firm founded by a women which hired mainly stay at home mothers and did amazingly well.)

frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
No it seems to me he's making a totally different argument which no one here is actually addressing. Why should we care about intention? The purpose of a system is what it does[0] so if Intel's 'hiring and firing' system systematically removes older people who cares about The Reason that managers give? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

andreareina 8y ago

We have a societally-accepted reason for older people to earn more -- experience, responsibility, and time-in-grade are correlated both age and pay. The same cannot be said for race or sex.

rdl 8y ago
If the job is something with such a steep learning curve and plateau (maybe due to periodic technical revolutions?) that someone with 20 years experience is only insignificantly better than someone with 5 years experience, economics would support paying them the same. If we want to artificially subsidize some more expensive older workers, they should be subsidized directly by society, not by forcing employers to do so. (There are a lot of jobs where 20 years gives better performance, or where being 51% good va 50% good would be worth a huge premium, but not all.) Where this really gets complex is startups which are growing in headcount and shrinking in equity offer size. An early hire there might be objectively worse than a new marginal hire but has an equity vesting package which makes him vastly better paid for each month today. IIRC it was Zynga which tried to forcibly renegotiate this (instead of just firing people who were presently underperforming, the usual route).
- sgift 8y ago
  > If the job is something with such a steep learning curve and plateau (maybe due to periodic technical revolutions?) that someone with 20 years experience is only insignificantly better than someone with 5 years experience, economics would support paying them the same. Good news then that this isn't how tech jobs work, where about 99% of all "technical revolutions" are just renaming old things which had fallen out of fashion and use them again.
  - rbanffy 8y ago
    > about 99% of all "technical revolutions" are just renaming old things which had fallen out of fashion and use them again Remember how thrilled web developers were when they discovered MVC the last couple times?
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Fine but then don't create housing bubbles that lock lower paid younger workers out of the market. I have to relocate in the not too distant future because local rent and home prices eclipse my frozen salary.

0xTJ 8y ago

You're completely ignoring the justification given, and it's a lot more difficult to translate the full situation to your analogy.