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I'm in the UK (not France) and I make ~3050EUR a month (pre tax), I take home after tax ~2400EUR. I've been making money from selling code since 1996 and a ful

I'm in the UK (not France) and I make ~3050EUR a month (pre tax), I take home after tax ~2400EUR. I've been making money from selling code since 1996 and a full time developer over a decade. While my salary would be low in London (I'd be worth at least another 10-15K down there) in the North of England and particularly where I live that gives me an excellent standard of living, rent on a decent sized two bed is <25% of my salary alone (excluding my partners entirely) about 15% if we include hers. US Salaries are way higher than UK salaries even in London and if you exclude London then the gap is hilariously bad. Average software engineer in my region earns £25K. I could move down south but frankly I don't want to, I like it up here, I have a good mostly low stress 9-5 job. There is more to life than take home pay. Additionally I have complex (therefore potentially very expensive) health issues that don't affect my ability to work but would affect my ability to get healthcare insurance in the US - if I adjust for that then things look much better from this side of the pond tbh.

systemtest 8y ago
I am a contractor in the Netherlands and I believe it is the best possible place for a developer. We have a very high quality of life and a good balance in income and spending. As a contractor you can earn near 20k per month pre-tax (around 7k per month post-tax) and live in a big home that costs you 1k per month in mortgage. That leaves you a lot of money for your spare time, fun activities and early retirement. I'm planning to retire at 35.
- Pandabob 8y ago
  Is this for real? I mean is this common? That's €240k, which is starting to near SF levels of pay. I've got a hard time believing this but will look into it more thoroughly. As a data scientist in Finland, I've been under the impression that the best places for a developer in terms of compensation in Europe are Switzerland, Norway and London (if one gets a good contracting gig there).
  - systemtest 8y ago
    Hourly contractor, so you don't get any of the social safety net, you have to arrange your own pension, no pay on holiday, no sick days, no company car, no company laptop. You have to take care of all that yourself. A little calculation for your average senior developer in a corporate for-profit environment. On average you can do about 1850 billable hours a year, which means you are taking 7 weeks off for holiday, illness, courses, certifications. At an average rate of 90 euro per hour, that is €166,500 per year. With VAT added you can bill the customer €201,465 per year.
    - CamTin 8y ago
      Is it really that common for French developers to get a company car? What on earth is it for? Driving around in meatspace to meet clients for consulting-firm type gigs?
      - systemtest 8y ago
        I was talking about the Netherlands. Here, a company car is a normal perk for consultancy developers. Even the type of consultants that work 9-to-5 at the same customer for a couple of years and only have to drive to and from the customer. But they are usually allowed to use the car for private use, once they pay a monthly company car tax (100-300 euro for a normal car). But other tech companies are also starting to give away company cars as part of the compensation package, to attract developers.
        CamTin 8y ago
        That's pretty bonkers. Is there some bizarre tax incentive that makes this more attractive (for somebody presumably? the company? the employee?) than just paying them more and possibly reimbursing them for mileage?
        systemtest 8y ago
        For the company it doesn’t matter. If they give you a VW Golf or Volvo V40 they are out €800 per month, if they reimburse your travel expense they are also out €800 per month. For the employee it is cheaper to have a company car than to buy one yourself if you want a brand new car. If you don’t care about driving an old car it could be cheaper to buy your own car and get the travel reimbursement of €800 pre-tax. The big thing about company cars is that for most it’s a status symbol. Straight out of university and you will have a brand new car with all the bells and whistles. You don’t have to save money and it will not impact any credit scores. And if the engine blows up or you drive into a lake, you will get a new car one hour later. At most it will cost you the €100 deductible if you were in neglect. Also, golden cage. I know some developers that don’t want to switch to a better job without a company car because then they will have to spend a couple thousand on a “dirty old used car”.
- vram22 8y ago
  >As a contractor you can earn near 20k per month pre-tax (around 7k per month post-tax). Does that mean that taxes are (20 - 7) / 20 * 100 = 65% in NL? I knew that taxes in some EU countries (west, north) were high, but didn't know it was that high in NL. (I am aware that you get many benefits in return for the high taxes, but thought it was in the range of 40 to 50%, in some of those countries - per what I read.)
  - systemtest 8y ago
    First of you have 21% VAT. You have to put this on your customers’s invoices and then transfer the tax directly to the tax office. From whats left, we have an income tax bracket system. From 67k you pay 52%. So in this case the total tax rate is roughly 40% because a big portion of your income is in the 52% bracket. It’s a lot but life is good here. Wouldn’t trade it for anything else.
    - vram22 8y ago
      Thanks for the info.
pjc50 8y ago
"Purchasing power parity" is extremely important for comparing these things, especially when it comes to housing. I get the impression that Silicon Valley is a place where $100k isn't quite enough to not have to share accomodation. It's certainly the case that London-weighted salaries don't make up for London-weighted house prices. One of these days remote working will start to make a difference in this inequality.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Wouldn't one of the primary effects of remote work be to put downward pressure on salaries in high cost of living areas?
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    Possibly but that would also put downwards pressure on the rents/house prices in the high cost of living areas. Supply and demand, if I could earn 90% of a London salary in the North of England I'd be about 13500-20,000 better off.
- noir_lord 8y ago
  Agreed, Near where I live I can buy a nice three bedroom house in a decent area for less than a 1 bedroom flat in a good chunk of London. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65484652.html http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-654846... round the corner from the street where where I grew up, it's a nice solidly middle class area with decent schools, parks. 200K for a detached 3 house with garage and a reasonable garden, In a good chunk of London the equivalent would be 2-4x more expensive and in the city proper more than 5x. So suddenly £32K where I am starts too look pretty good compared to 55-60K in London. Also it's not just the housing that is cheaper up here, almost everything is cheaper.

systemtest 8y ago

I am a contractor in the Netherlands and I believe it is the best possible place for a developer. We have a very high quality of life and a good balance in income and spending. As a contractor you can earn near 20k per month pre-tax (around 7k per month post-tax) and live in a big home that costs you 1k per month in mortgage. That leaves you a lot of money for your spare time, fun activities and early retirement. I'm planning to retire at 35.

Pandabob 8y ago
Is this for real? I mean is this common? That's €240k, which is starting to near SF levels of pay. I've got a hard time believing this but will look into it more thoroughly. As a data scientist in Finland, I've been under the impression that the best places for a developer in terms of compensation in Europe are Switzerland, Norway and London (if one gets a good contracting gig there).
- systemtest 8y ago
  Hourly contractor, so you don't get any of the social safety net, you have to arrange your own pension, no pay on holiday, no sick days, no company car, no company laptop. You have to take care of all that yourself. A little calculation for your average senior developer in a corporate for-profit environment. On average you can do about 1850 billable hours a year, which means you are taking 7 weeks off for holiday, illness, courses, certifications. At an average rate of 90 euro per hour, that is €166,500 per year. With VAT added you can bill the customer €201,465 per year.
  - CamTin 8y ago
    Is it really that common for French developers to get a company car? What on earth is it for? Driving around in meatspace to meet clients for consulting-firm type gigs?
    - systemtest 8y ago
      I was talking about the Netherlands. Here, a company car is a normal perk for consultancy developers. Even the type of consultants that work 9-to-5 at the same customer for a couple of years and only have to drive to and from the customer. But they are usually allowed to use the car for private use, once they pay a monthly company car tax (100-300 euro for a normal car). But other tech companies are also starting to give away company cars as part of the compensation package, to attract developers.
      - CamTin 8y ago
        That's pretty bonkers. Is there some bizarre tax incentive that makes this more attractive (for somebody presumably? the company? the employee?) than just paying them more and possibly reimbursing them for mileage?
        systemtest 8y ago
        For the company it doesn’t matter. If they give you a VW Golf or Volvo V40 they are out €800 per month, if they reimburse your travel expense they are also out €800 per month. For the employee it is cheaper to have a company car than to buy one yourself if you want a brand new car. If you don’t care about driving an old car it could be cheaper to buy your own car and get the travel reimbursement of €800 pre-tax. The big thing about company cars is that for most it’s a status symbol. Straight out of university and you will have a brand new car with all the bells and whistles. You don’t have to save money and it will not impact any credit scores. And if the engine blows up or you drive into a lake, you will get a new car one hour later. At most it will cost you the €100 deductible if you were in neglect. Also, golden cage. I know some developers that don’t want to switch to a better job without a company car because then they will have to spend a couple thousand on a “dirty old used car”.
vram22 8y ago
>As a contractor you can earn near 20k per month pre-tax (around 7k per month post-tax). Does that mean that taxes are (20 - 7) / 20 * 100 = 65% in NL? I knew that taxes in some EU countries (west, north) were high, but didn't know it was that high in NL. (I am aware that you get many benefits in return for the high taxes, but thought it was in the range of 40 to 50%, in some of those countries - per what I read.)
- systemtest 8y ago
  First of you have 21% VAT. You have to put this on your customers’s invoices and then transfer the tax directly to the tax office. From whats left, we have an income tax bracket system. From 67k you pay 52%. So in this case the total tax rate is roughly 40% because a big portion of your income is in the 52% bracket. It’s a lot but life is good here. Wouldn’t trade it for anything else.
  - vram22 8y ago
    Thanks for the info.

pjc50 8y ago

"Purchasing power parity" is extremely important for comparing these things, especially when it comes to housing. I get the impression that Silicon Valley is a place where $100k isn't quite enough to not have to share accomodation. It's certainly the case that London-weighted salaries don't make up for London-weighted house prices. One of these days remote working will start to make a difference in this inequality.

maxerickson 8y ago
Wouldn't one of the primary effects of remote work be to put downward pressure on salaries in high cost of living areas?
- noir_lord 8y ago
  Possibly but that would also put downwards pressure on the rents/house prices in the high cost of living areas. Supply and demand, if I could earn 90% of a London salary in the North of England I'd be about 13500-20,000 better off.
noir_lord 8y ago
Agreed, Near where I live I can buy a nice three bedroom house in a decent area for less than a 1 bedroom flat in a good chunk of London. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-65484652.html http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-654846... round the corner from the street where where I grew up, it's a nice solidly middle class area with decent schools, parks. 200K for a detached 3 house with garage and a reasonable garden, In a good chunk of London the equivalent would be 2-4x more expensive and in the city proper more than 5x. So suddenly £32K where I am starts too look pretty good compared to 55-60K in London. Also it's not just the housing that is cheaper up here, almost everything is cheaper.