8 ms·

It's weird that the article pulls out statistics that underline Intels wrongdoing (ρ(age, awareness of rights/pay/...) but not the statistics that might be the

It's weird that the article pulls out statistics that underline Intels wrongdoing (ρ(age, awareness of rights/pay/...) but not the statistics that might be the reason: Older people are less innovative, learn slower and so on. Ergo, if you're for example firing the bottom percentile of "adapted the new data entry tool", there is a good chance that the avg will be higher than the avg of all people working there

chrisbennet 8y ago
Given that "Older people are less innovative, learn slower and so on." what would you guess the average age of founders with a successful startup exit is? (A) 22 (B) 26 (C) 31
- chrisbennet 8y ago
  None of the above. Try 47. https://digitopoly.org/2017/07/17/the-young-entrepreneur-myth/ https://digitopoly.org/2017/07/17/the-young-entrepreneur-myt...
- blackbrokkoli 8y ago
  That is interesting (especially regarding the comment below citing an even higher age)! But I'm not sure how that converts to the skills you need to have to be an employable Intel worker, which are most certainly a lot different
  - chrisbennet 8y ago
    My (admittedly snarky) post was in response was to the "old people are slow" comment. You are probably right though on the different skills. <snark> Perhaps being a successful founder doesn't require as much neural plasticity as being an older worker at Intel. ;-) </snark>
    - justherefortart 8y ago
      I'm about to turn 45. I'm on my 8th startup. Not including all the kid startups I did. My first startup was in 1996, I started this one 3 years ago, it's finally getting some traction. I've probably only got 1-2 more startups in me if I don't have the capital, which is always my biggest hurdle. Hopefully this will be the leap that takes grandpa home ;-)
- xstartup 8y ago
  That might be the reason for most of the startup failing eh? Statistics can be taken anywhere.
  - chrisbennet 8y ago
    I’m not sure I understand. 47 is the average age for founders with successful exits.
myth_drannon 8y ago
I would say older employees in corporations tend to be middle managers. If the layoffs affect more management than the engineering side you are going to have a skewed graph.
- fma 8y ago
  It would be nice if productivity was measured by line of codes. That way we get rid of all the managers and executives who spend their days to come up with stupid ideas and say 'make it so by arbitrary date'.
  - myth_drannon 8y ago
    Well as with developers, some managers are good and some not. Let's not follow Larry Page's attempt to fire all the project managers at Google in 2001 http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/04/25/google_s_larry_page_the_co_founder_s_untold_story.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/04/25/googl...
    - fma 8y ago
      Interesting article. I had no idea Google was called BackRub? I was using Google...in 2001 (even before?) and never knew of it as BackRub. Anyways - I probably wouldn't want to fire all managers. But based on the directives they come up with, I feel managers and executives have lost touch with their product and process. It would be nice of they could have a dose of "Undercover boss" and be forced to do some worker bee work once in a while. Then their directives would probably be closer to reality. I work in the internal integration space and work with lots of teams. Very often they'd come up with some requirement, or a date that is far fetched and it all comes from above. I'd need to talk some sense into people and tell them why their idea is bad, or their timeline poses a risk.
  - croon 8y ago
    Yeah, I can't wait to get pay deducted for days when you remove fluff from the code base or refactor code into more readable and efficient software. Lines-of-code/time is a terrible measurement.
mark_edward 8y ago
>Older people are less innovative, learn slower and so on. Why should I or anyone else believe this about older and more experienced programmers? I can't think of many fields where more experienced practitioners are generally worse...
- Uberphallus 8y ago
  'Oh, you don't know the latest JS/PHP/Python web framework? Prfff, what a dinosaur.'
rbanffy 8y ago
http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-24 http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-24 We aren't slower. We only move in the right directions.
user5454 8y ago
There's science to prove you wrong [1]. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/joop.12031 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/joop.12031
microtherion 8y ago
Ah yes, so after all those layoffs of older employees, Intel and IBM nowadays should be true powerhouses of innovation!
fuzzfactor 8y ago
> Older people are less innovative Well, maybe you are just speaking for yourself or your peer group. I would be a little more inclusive in my terminology and more likely to say "The average person can be less innovative after they have aged excessively." One of the interesting things about natural-born innovators is that they are very seldom average people. > Everyone starts out at a relatively low level, rises to a max and then decline as they age When it comes to native innovative ability, it starts out at a relatively high level, is capable of growing exponentially over time, and only declines in growth rate AFTER the subject has aged excessively. Innovation itself is one of the extreme cases where the only viable substitute for starting early and decades of experience, is to have a windfall of good fortune. Which is why most innovation occurs due to a windfall of good fortune rather than the result of a goal being reached as planned.

chrisbennet 8y ago

Given that "Older people are less innovative, learn slower and so on." what would you guess the average age of founders with a successful startup exit is? (A) 22 (B) 26 (C) 31

chrisbennet 8y ago
None of the above. Try 47. https://digitopoly.org/2017/07/17/the-young-entrepreneur-myth/ https://digitopoly.org/2017/07/17/the-young-entrepreneur-myt...
blackbrokkoli 8y ago
That is interesting (especially regarding the comment below citing an even higher age)! But I'm not sure how that converts to the skills you need to have to be an employable Intel worker, which are most certainly a lot different
- chrisbennet 8y ago
  My (admittedly snarky) post was in response was to the "old people are slow" comment. You are probably right though on the different skills. <snark> Perhaps being a successful founder doesn't require as much neural plasticity as being an older worker at Intel. ;-) </snark>
  - justherefortart 8y ago
    I'm about to turn 45. I'm on my 8th startup. Not including all the kid startups I did. My first startup was in 1996, I started this one 3 years ago, it's finally getting some traction. I've probably only got 1-2 more startups in me if I don't have the capital, which is always my biggest hurdle. Hopefully this will be the leap that takes grandpa home ;-)
xstartup 8y ago
That might be the reason for most of the startup failing eh? Statistics can be taken anywhere.
- chrisbennet 8y ago
  I’m not sure I understand. 47 is the average age for founders with successful exits.

myth_drannon 8y ago

I would say older employees in corporations tend to be middle managers. If the layoffs affect more management than the engineering side you are going to have a skewed graph.

fma 8y ago
It would be nice if productivity was measured by line of codes. That way we get rid of all the managers and executives who spend their days to come up with stupid ideas and say 'make it so by arbitrary date'.
- myth_drannon 8y ago
  Well as with developers, some managers are good and some not. Let's not follow Larry Page's attempt to fire all the project managers at Google in 2001 http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/04/25/google_s_larry_page_the_co_founder_s_untold_story.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/04/25/googl...
  - fma 8y ago
    Interesting article. I had no idea Google was called BackRub? I was using Google...in 2001 (even before?) and never knew of it as BackRub. Anyways - I probably wouldn't want to fire all managers. But based on the directives they come up with, I feel managers and executives have lost touch with their product and process. It would be nice of they could have a dose of "Undercover boss" and be forced to do some worker bee work once in a while. Then their directives would probably be closer to reality. I work in the internal integration space and work with lots of teams. Very often they'd come up with some requirement, or a date that is far fetched and it all comes from above. I'd need to talk some sense into people and tell them why their idea is bad, or their timeline poses a risk.
- croon 8y ago
  Yeah, I can't wait to get pay deducted for days when you remove fluff from the code base or refactor code into more readable and efficient software. Lines-of-code/time is a terrible measurement.

mark_edward 8y ago

>Older people are less innovative, learn slower and so on. Why should I or anyone else believe this about older and more experienced programmers? I can't think of many fields where more experienced practitioners are generally worse...

Uberphallus 8y ago
'Oh, you don't know the latest JS/PHP/Python web framework? Prfff, what a dinosaur.'

rbanffy 8y ago

http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-24 http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-24 We aren't slower. We only move in the right directions.

user5454 8y ago

There's science to prove you wrong [1]. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/joop.12031 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/joop.12031

microtherion 8y ago

Ah yes, so after all those layoffs of older employees, Intel and IBM nowadays should be true powerhouses of innovation!

fuzzfactor 8y ago

> Older people are less innovative Well, maybe you are just speaking for yourself or your peer group. I would be a little more inclusive in my terminology and more likely to say "The average person can be less innovative after they have aged excessively." One of the interesting things about natural-born innovators is that they are very seldom average people. > Everyone starts out at a relatively low level, rises to a max and then decline as they age When it comes to native innovative ability, it starts out at a relatively high level, is capable of growing exponentially over time, and only declines in growth rate AFTER the subject has aged excessively. Innovation itself is one of the extreme cases where the only viable substitute for starting early and decades of experience, is to have a windfall of good fortune. Which is why most innovation occurs due to a windfall of good fortune rather than the result of a goal being reached as planned.