5 ms·

Just sharing another experience: I am a technical manager at a small-size big data company. We opened a new office in Paris three months ago and our largest st

Just sharing another experience: I am a technical manager at a small-size big data company. We opened a new office in Paris three months ago and our largest struggle by far is recruiting talent. Despite what other comments here are writing, the startup scene is booming. Station F[1] is huge. The four WeWorks are full and they are opening two more soon. Global companies like Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Naver are growing their presence. New companies are popping up all the time. Despite the academic strength of France in Computer Science, there is simply not enough supply of senior engineers in France to meet the demand. A couple of years ago Paris was lukewarm and we managed to open up in the midst of frying heat. I have met both Berliners and Parisians who say that there is more happening in Paris than Berlin right now. The language divide is definitely a thing. We are an international English-speaking company and that works both for and against us. (We're called Kaiko[1] if anyone reading this wants to reach out and connect) [0] https://stationf.co/ https://stationf.co/ [1] https://www.kaiko.com https://www.kaiko.com

roel_v 8y ago
"our largest struggle by far is recruiting talent" So, proof of the pudding and all - how much are you paying a senior engineer? To make it easier to compare, take an hypothetical software engineer with a cs degree and 10 years of experience in mainstream technologies?
- T-N-T 8y ago
  I am french and two of my friends left for the US because very large companies I won't name made them offers that are impossible to match in Europe. There is no lack of produced talents here, they just won't stay because they don't get paid their true market value.
rdm_blackhole 8y ago
Correction, there are enough devs but the salaries are too low, so they go elsewhere like I did. I am not going to work 40+ hours a week or more to make 2500 euros and pay 1000 euros of rent in Paris. Whats the point? Also, Paris is a crime-ridden city that is way overpriced.
- flaie 8y ago
  Exactly, there's a lot of cool stuff going on in Paris, but seriously it's underpaid for the price you have to pay to live there. From where I live I could work in Paris with the same commute time than I do by working in Luxembourg, but I get a better paycheck. Renting a 2 bedroom costs 700€ a month where I live, in Paris it would cost 2 to 3 times this. I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London, Luxembourg, Switzerland, so they chose that.
  - Uberphallus 8y ago
    Confirmed. I'm far from Paris, my company proposed me to change client and relocate to Paris. Had a look at rent prices and traffic. Next thing I ask is if I'm getting some kind of salary raise, and they look at me and replied with the classic "bah, écoute...", obviously I declined.
  - mayniac 8y ago
    >I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London Not by much [1][2], and rent is worse in London[3]. I think income tax is fairly comparable. From personal experience the same salary goes further in Paris and quality of life is better than in London, although I never officially worked in Paris so can't comment too much. The nightlife is certainly better. Also Switzerland is crazy expensive so even if you're earning more it won't matter, pretty much everything you buy day to day is about 2x as expensive compared to anywhere else. [1] https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,24.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-enginee... [2] https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/paris-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,5_IM1080_KO6,23.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/paris-software-engineer... [3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&city1=Paris&country2=United+Kingdom&city2=London https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
enriquto 8y ago
> there is simply not enough supply of senior engineers in France to meet the demand. This argument is ridiculous, the problem is that you are not willing to pay enough. (I am working in Paris)
- Legogris 8y ago
  I'm curious: What is "enough" for someone with eq of an MSc in CS and a couple of years work experience with big data and distributed systems? I realize Glassdoor and similar sites aren't the best source of information but 60K EUR per year seems to be "normal" pay for such a profile and offering above that hasn't helped us. We're having trouble even finding relevant people to open up the conversation with. I am interviewing pretty much daily and I can count the number of candidates that we have even been talking salary with on my fingers. I bet it's a different story with web or app devs, though.
  - enriquto 8y ago
    Good enough will be by definition, the minimum salary at which somebody is willing to do that work for you. There's no a priori number that is appropriate, and it has nothing to do at all with the level of studies of your candidate, only with the job market. If there are few candidates, of course you'll have to pay a lot of money.
  - conradfr 8y ago
    That seems decent but I don't know much about this space (I know that 60k€ as a PHP/Symfony developer is kind of a hard to break ceiling no matter the experience). Do your ads have a salary range? Employed people tend to ignore those who don't.
  - taejo 8y ago
    I'm earning a lot more than that in Berlin, which is a lot cheaper than Paris from what I've heard. I had a year of software engineering experience when I started, and an MSc in CS in an unrelated specialisation.

roel_v 8y ago

"our largest struggle by far is recruiting talent" So, proof of the pudding and all - how much are you paying a senior engineer? To make it easier to compare, take an hypothetical software engineer with a cs degree and 10 years of experience in mainstream technologies?

T-N-T 8y ago
I am french and two of my friends left for the US because very large companies I won't name made them offers that are impossible to match in Europe. There is no lack of produced talents here, they just won't stay because they don't get paid their true market value.

rdm_blackhole 8y ago

Correction, there are enough devs but the salaries are too low, so they go elsewhere like I did. I am not going to work 40+ hours a week or more to make 2500 euros and pay 1000 euros of rent in Paris. Whats the point? Also, Paris is a crime-ridden city that is way overpriced.

flaie 8y ago
Exactly, there's a lot of cool stuff going on in Paris, but seriously it's underpaid for the price you have to pay to live there. From where I live I could work in Paris with the same commute time than I do by working in Luxembourg, but I get a better paycheck. Renting a 2 bedroom costs 700€ a month where I live, in Paris it would cost 2 to 3 times this. I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London, Luxembourg, Switzerland, so they chose that.
- Uberphallus 8y ago
  Confirmed. I'm far from Paris, my company proposed me to change client and relocate to Paris. Had a look at rent prices and traffic. Next thing I ask is if I'm getting some kind of salary raise, and they look at me and replied with the classic "bah, écoute...", obviously I declined.
- mayniac 8y ago
  >I don't get the "there's not enough engineering available", this is just not true, reality is that people will earn a lot more in London Not by much [1][2], and rent is worse in London[3]. I think income tax is fairly comparable. From personal experience the same salary goes further in Paris and quality of life is better than in London, although I never officially worked in Paris so can't comment too much. The nightlife is certainly better. Also Switzerland is crazy expensive so even if you're earning more it won't matter, pretty much everything you buy day to day is about 2x as expensive compared to anywhere else. [1] https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1035_KO7,24.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/london-software-enginee... [2] https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/paris-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,5_IM1080_KO6,23.htm https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/paris-software-engineer... [3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=France&city1=Paris&country2=United+Kingdom&city2=London https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

enriquto 8y ago

> there is simply not enough supply of senior engineers in France to meet the demand. This argument is ridiculous, the problem is that you are not willing to pay enough. (I am working in Paris)

Legogris 8y ago
I'm curious: What is "enough" for someone with eq of an MSc in CS and a couple of years work experience with big data and distributed systems? I realize Glassdoor and similar sites aren't the best source of information but 60K EUR per year seems to be "normal" pay for such a profile and offering above that hasn't helped us. We're having trouble even finding relevant people to open up the conversation with. I am interviewing pretty much daily and I can count the number of candidates that we have even been talking salary with on my fingers. I bet it's a different story with web or app devs, though.
- enriquto 8y ago
  Good enough will be by definition, the minimum salary at which somebody is willing to do that work for you. There's no a priori number that is appropriate, and it has nothing to do at all with the level of studies of your candidate, only with the job market. If there are few candidates, of course you'll have to pay a lot of money.
- conradfr 8y ago
  That seems decent but I don't know much about this space (I know that 60k€ as a PHP/Symfony developer is kind of a hard to break ceiling no matter the experience). Do your ads have a salary range? Employed people tend to ignore those who don't.
- taejo 8y ago
  I'm earning a lot more than that in Berlin, which is a lot cheaper than Paris from what I've heard. I had a year of software engineering experience when I started, and an MSc in CS in an unrelated specialisation.