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The "Pale Blue Dot" photograph strikes the same chord for me. Carl Sagan's reflection on it can be especially moving [1]. [...] The Earth is a very small stage

The "Pale Blue Dot" photograph strikes the same chord for me. Carl Sagan's reflection on it can be especially moving [1]. [...] The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and in triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. [...] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot#Reflections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot#Reflections

nurettin 8y ago
As someone who has never been religious and has all the traits to be scientific-minded, I will play the devil's advocate and say that Sagan's pale blue dot never struck a chord with me at all. Significance can be compared with size, now? This whole idea contradicts the very nature of being human which is to make up meaning according to the culture and trends of the time. Not to mention that even the tiniest piece of the universe, say, a quark, or a tiny physics formula can have eternal significance within the grand scheme of things. Overall the message of peace among people is well-received, but the tactic is cheesy and not well thought-out.
- yonoataraxia 8y ago
  > This whole idea contradicts the very nature of being human which is to make up meaning according to the culture and trends of the time. We all do it: we have assumptions in form of learned concepts or experiences, place importance on some of them and then use it to prove a point. You state that it didn't "struck a chord with you at all" and then proceed with your assumptions / value system ("... physics formula can have eternal significance within the grand scheme of things"). For all positions, assumptions and opinions there exists a position where all of it doesn't matter. Trying to be scientific is also a belief system. Recognizing that all human beings share the trait of having assumptions (some of them called facts) and deriving behavior and opinions from it is the key. This understanding can support empathy which was generally a good strategy to have in the past (e.g. even monkeys implement fairness concepts based on individuals trying to manage resources in groups which IMHO is one important aspect of the origin of empathy). I can understand your position of relativism, but it's very close to nihilism. This is not inherently bad (nothing is good or bad, anyways - I'm also a big fan of relativism), but it can be detrimental to mental health and overall well-being. The tactic may be too simple to "get you", but your point of view is equally flawed in another way (as well as mine). The question is: What are you standing for if you don't find his arguments convincing? Nitpicking and being anti is not a good long-term strategy, maybe we can help him with better arguments for empathy that resonate with scientific-minded thinkers like you.
  - nurettin 8y ago
    Bane of humanity is that they are glorified copy machines, creating flawed simulations in their minds and trying to validate themselves using others. So I strive for one thing I know I cannot achieve: to produce thought original enough that will let me die with pride.
    - yonoataraxia 8y ago
      I'm pretty sure that you're going to work this out :) > glorified copy machines > So I strive for one thing I know I cannot achieve There's some serious cynism going on here. Maybe cabaret artist is something for you to consider. The late George Carlin was incredibly funny because of it. Some people love jokes based on materialistic and dry analysis of human behavior. I do.
- Yetanfou 8y ago
  Significance is not related to size: meeting a few virus particles [1] could be the most significant - and possibly last - event of notice in your life. On the other hand few people will be aware of meeting the largest - and possibly oldest - organism on the planet when they look at a honey mushroom in Oregon National Forest [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus [2] http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/nature/the-worlds-largest-living-organism.aspx http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/nature/the-worlds-large...
kazga 8y ago
It can be moving and put things into perspective, but if being the momentary master of a fraction of a dot is insignifant, then so are the "rivers of blood" that were spilled. In the context of the cosmic arena, the Holocaust is no different from me stubbing my toe in terms of impact and significance.

nurettin 8y ago

As someone who has never been religious and has all the traits to be scientific-minded, I will play the devil's advocate and say that Sagan's pale blue dot never struck a chord with me at all. Significance can be compared with size, now? This whole idea contradicts the very nature of being human which is to make up meaning according to the culture and trends of the time. Not to mention that even the tiniest piece of the universe, say, a quark, or a tiny physics formula can have eternal significance within the grand scheme of things. Overall the message of peace among people is well-received, but the tactic is cheesy and not well thought-out.

yonoataraxia 8y ago
> This whole idea contradicts the very nature of being human which is to make up meaning according to the culture and trends of the time. We all do it: we have assumptions in form of learned concepts or experiences, place importance on some of them and then use it to prove a point. You state that it didn't "struck a chord with you at all" and then proceed with your assumptions / value system ("... physics formula can have eternal significance within the grand scheme of things"). For all positions, assumptions and opinions there exists a position where all of it doesn't matter. Trying to be scientific is also a belief system. Recognizing that all human beings share the trait of having assumptions (some of them called facts) and deriving behavior and opinions from it is the key. This understanding can support empathy which was generally a good strategy to have in the past (e.g. even monkeys implement fairness concepts based on individuals trying to manage resources in groups which IMHO is one important aspect of the origin of empathy). I can understand your position of relativism, but it's very close to nihilism. This is not inherently bad (nothing is good or bad, anyways - I'm also a big fan of relativism), but it can be detrimental to mental health and overall well-being. The tactic may be too simple to "get you", but your point of view is equally flawed in another way (as well as mine). The question is: What are you standing for if you don't find his arguments convincing? Nitpicking and being anti is not a good long-term strategy, maybe we can help him with better arguments for empathy that resonate with scientific-minded thinkers like you.
- nurettin 8y ago
  Bane of humanity is that they are glorified copy machines, creating flawed simulations in their minds and trying to validate themselves using others. So I strive for one thing I know I cannot achieve: to produce thought original enough that will let me die with pride.
  - yonoataraxia 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure that you're going to work this out :) > glorified copy machines > So I strive for one thing I know I cannot achieve There's some serious cynism going on here. Maybe cabaret artist is something for you to consider. The late George Carlin was incredibly funny because of it. Some people love jokes based on materialistic and dry analysis of human behavior. I do.
Yetanfou 8y ago
Significance is not related to size: meeting a few virus particles [1] could be the most significant - and possibly last - event of notice in your life. On the other hand few people will be aware of meeting the largest - and possibly oldest - organism on the planet when they look at a honey mushroom in Oregon National Forest [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus [2] http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/nature/the-worlds-largest-living-organism.aspx http://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/nature/the-worlds-large...

kazga 8y ago

It can be moving and put things into perspective, but if being the momentary master of a fraction of a dot is insignifant, then so are the "rivers of blood" that were spilled. In the context of the cosmic arena, the Holocaust is no different from me stubbing my toe in terms of impact and significance.