8 ms·

Well, aren't there laws that regulate the usage of buildings? Where I live (EU) you definitely cannot host mining racks in living premises. Just to get the high

Well, aren't there laws that regulate the usage of buildings? Where I live (EU) you definitely cannot host mining racks in living premises. Just to get the higher power links you get questions asked.

jimnotgym 8y ago
My thoughts too. In the UK you would have to apply to the local authority for 'change of use' planning consent. Even changing between different classes of commercial use requires consent. This gets posted on the gate outside and in the local press. Anyone is free to write in and make their point known. Finally an official makes a recommendation to a committee of elected representatives at an open meeting. If approved you now have a commercially rated site and have to pay 'business rates' (local tax based on the value of the property and the use it is put to) to the local authority. Sounds like there is a lot of opportunity to charge potential miners... I think even commercial electric rates in the UK are around £0.17 kwh, so mining is not likely to trouble us any time soon!
- briandear 8y ago
  And that’s ridiculous. Me working on my computer in my house paying the asking rate for the electricity is really none of the business of my neighbors. It isn’t like someone is running a hair salon or a day care center where there could be traffic/disruption concerns.
  - jsjohnst 8y ago
    You don’t think the risk of fire and/or localized grid overload from drawing much more power than designed for a residential property is of no concern to the neighbors?
  - jimnotgym 8y ago
    What is ridiculous is reducing things to the absurd, of you can work on a computer in your house without planning permission! A remote worker can work from home. You just can't run a server farm, or have other people coming round to work there. The point is a normal home may have an office, and using that office to work is no different to using it for your household admin. A normal home does not have a server room however.
Rjevski 8y ago
I don’t know, but the main point of zoning laws is to prevent disturbances (like you can’t run a shop or a bar in a residential building for obvious noise and crowd concerns), but I don’t see why mining would be problematic. I’d rather have miners in the building rather than the drug-dealing kids that attract police every other week or so. Mining is very peaceful, you just install a piece of hardware and let it run (no noise, no damage, etc).
- joosters 8y ago
  No noise??? You need some deafening loud whirring fans to cool the racks of miners.
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    But overall a building wall is pretty effective at shielding from that kind of noise. I’d very much prefer a quiet white noise from the racks in the above unit than someone arguing at 3am or a stupid toddler screaming. You can easily tune out “stable” noise like the one produced by fans, but you can’t for irregular noise like people talking or someone dropping heavy stuff at night.
- rdiddly 8y ago
  The point of zoning laws is different depending on whom you ask. Those most strongly in favor of mixed-use urbanism might even say there's no point. But in the broadest sense, they're supposed to prevent conflicts between land uses. And crypto mining at any useful/profitable scale conflicts with an electrical infrastructure designed for lower residential loads. To allow mining safely, someone has to pay to upgrade that infrastructure. Otherwise you're looking at overloading a circuit, maybe even burning the building down.
  - Rjevski 8y ago
    Aren’t energy prices supposed to pay for that? In France for example, in addition to per kWh rate you also pay a subscription charge corresponding to the maximum amount of current you can draw from the grid. The miners who need more power would pay for higher current and thus pay for the upgrades to the grid.
cookiecaper 8y ago
Yes, if the area is zoned residential, you are not allowed to use it for commercial purposes. You'd have to convince the code enforcement board and/or potentially other relevant authorities that the use was non-residential. Even to make the "weekend getaway with attached server room" argument, you have to be in an area that is zoned for temporary housing.
syshum 8y ago
Yes, In America we still have freedom... ;) So no the government will not regulate if I have 42U rack (like do right now behind me as a Homelab no mining) Getting more power to your place is between the power company and property owner not the government, I can get as much power feeds as the power company will sell me, and generally they will only ask question related to saftey. Want 400amp service to your Garage, no problem 99.9% of the time
- briandear 8y ago
  Why is this being downvoted? Are there people on HN that actually think the government should tell people what they can do in the privacy of their own home? What a bunch of totalitarians. Perhaps the government should be able to dictate who people can sleep with or what media they are allowed to consume. Why are there so many people comfortable with letting governments dictate freedoms when those freedoms aren’t harming anyone?
  - Itaxpica 8y ago
    Did you read the part in the article where server racks set up in apartments not designed for the load are starting electrical fires in residential areas? Kind of a weird definition of “not harming anyone”.
    - rdiddly 8y ago
      Certain phrases in the parent ("own home") and grandparent ("property owner") would seem to make this comment about apartments somewhat inapplicable. But it really is as simple as that - if you own the equipment and/or can safely handle the load and/or can bear all the costs yourself of any un-safety, then you can do whatever you want. If what you do affects others, those others will object, either in the form of an ultimatum/eviction/lawsuit by your landlord, a complaint/lawsuit by your neighbor(s), an ultimatum or unpaid claim by your insurance company, or an ultimatum/discontinuation of service by the electricity provider. "In America we still have freedom" and calling people "totalitarians" are both a little off-the-hook which I think explains the downvotes.
  - 8y ago
notatoad 8y ago
how does that sort of regulation actually work? You can obviously have a personal computer. surely you can have a few computers. at what point does the government say you have too many computers?
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  That’s why there are judges.
- jsjohnst 8y ago
  That’s easy, when you draw more power than rated for the residential power connections coming in.
- rdiddly 8y ago
  "The government" probably doesn't say it; people who are negatively impacted or forced to take on extra risk because of mining activity are the ones to say something. For example, the electricity provider probably objects precisely when the current you're drawing exceeds the safe limits of their equipment and wiring. If they're particularly on the ball, they at least come investigate as soon as they notice an unusually high current-draw for that individual residence. You're generally free to exceed the safety limits of the equipment and wiring within your own structure, since you pay all the costs of any resulting incident/accident. But if you're covering those costs via a homeowner's insurance policy, that policy/company might have some things to say about current loads and building codes, as prerequisites for covering you. In a rental property your ability to run mining rigs would depend on the lease, and the landlord's degree of vigilance in monitoring unusual electrical loads. If there's an incident or fire due to current-draw nobody noticed, it probably ends up in court. If you promised (by signing a lease with a relevant clause in it) that you wouldn't engage in excessive current-drawing activities, you lose that case pretty much instantly. Otherwise it'll be up to their side to prove that your negligence caused any losses or damages to the landlord's property, not to mention other tenants' property if they also sue you.
  - notatoad 8y ago
    >"The government" probably doesn't say it; The comment I was replying to specifically says they do...

Well, aren't there laws that regulate the usage of buildings? Where I live (EU) you definitely cannot host mining racks in living premises. Just to get the higher power links you get questions asked.

jimnotgym 8y ago

My thoughts too. In the UK you would have to apply to the local authority for 'change of use' planning consent. Even changing between different classes of commercial use requires consent. This gets posted on the gate outside and in the local press. Anyone is free to write in and make their point known. Finally an official makes a recommendation to a committee of elected representatives at an open meeting. If approved you now have a commercially rated site and have to pay 'business rates' (local tax based on the value of the property and the use it is put to) to the local authority. Sounds like there is a lot of opportunity to charge potential miners... I think even commercial electric rates in the UK are around £0.17 kwh, so mining is not likely to trouble us any time soon!

briandear 8y ago
And that’s ridiculous. Me working on my computer in my house paying the asking rate for the electricity is really none of the business of my neighbors. It isn’t like someone is running a hair salon or a day care center where there could be traffic/disruption concerns.
- jsjohnst 8y ago
  You don’t think the risk of fire and/or localized grid overload from drawing much more power than designed for a residential property is of no concern to the neighbors?
- jimnotgym 8y ago
  What is ridiculous is reducing things to the absurd, of you can work on a computer in your house without planning permission! A remote worker can work from home. You just can't run a server farm, or have other people coming round to work there. The point is a normal home may have an office, and using that office to work is no different to using it for your household admin. A normal home does not have a server room however.

Rjevski 8y ago

I don’t know, but the main point of zoning laws is to prevent disturbances (like you can’t run a shop or a bar in a residential building for obvious noise and crowd concerns), but I don’t see why mining would be problematic. I’d rather have miners in the building rather than the drug-dealing kids that attract police every other week or so. Mining is very peaceful, you just install a piece of hardware and let it run (no noise, no damage, etc).

joosters 8y ago
No noise??? You need some deafening loud whirring fans to cool the racks of miners.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  But overall a building wall is pretty effective at shielding from that kind of noise. I’d very much prefer a quiet white noise from the racks in the above unit than someone arguing at 3am or a stupid toddler screaming. You can easily tune out “stable” noise like the one produced by fans, but you can’t for irregular noise like people talking or someone dropping heavy stuff at night.
rdiddly 8y ago
The point of zoning laws is different depending on whom you ask. Those most strongly in favor of mixed-use urbanism might even say there's no point. But in the broadest sense, they're supposed to prevent conflicts between land uses. And crypto mining at any useful/profitable scale conflicts with an electrical infrastructure designed for lower residential loads. To allow mining safely, someone has to pay to upgrade that infrastructure. Otherwise you're looking at overloading a circuit, maybe even burning the building down.
- Rjevski 8y ago
  Aren’t energy prices supposed to pay for that? In France for example, in addition to per kWh rate you also pay a subscription charge corresponding to the maximum amount of current you can draw from the grid. The miners who need more power would pay for higher current and thus pay for the upgrades to the grid.

cookiecaper 8y ago

Yes, if the area is zoned residential, you are not allowed to use it for commercial purposes. You'd have to convince the code enforcement board and/or potentially other relevant authorities that the use was non-residential. Even to make the "weekend getaway with attached server room" argument, you have to be in an area that is zoned for temporary housing.

syshum 8y ago

Yes, In America we still have freedom... ;) So no the government will not regulate if I have 42U rack (like do right now behind me as a Homelab no mining) Getting more power to your place is between the power company and property owner not the government, I can get as much power feeds as the power company will sell me, and generally they will only ask question related to saftey. Want 400amp service to your Garage, no problem 99.9% of the time

briandear 8y ago
Why is this being downvoted? Are there people on HN that actually think the government should tell people what they can do in the privacy of their own home? What a bunch of totalitarians. Perhaps the government should be able to dictate who people can sleep with or what media they are allowed to consume. Why are there so many people comfortable with letting governments dictate freedoms when those freedoms aren’t harming anyone?
- Itaxpica 8y ago
  Did you read the part in the article where server racks set up in apartments not designed for the load are starting electrical fires in residential areas? Kind of a weird definition of “not harming anyone”.
  - rdiddly 8y ago
    Certain phrases in the parent ("own home") and grandparent ("property owner") would seem to make this comment about apartments somewhat inapplicable. But it really is as simple as that - if you own the equipment and/or can safely handle the load and/or can bear all the costs yourself of any un-safety, then you can do whatever you want. If what you do affects others, those others will object, either in the form of an ultimatum/eviction/lawsuit by your landlord, a complaint/lawsuit by your neighbor(s), an ultimatum or unpaid claim by your insurance company, or an ultimatum/discontinuation of service by the electricity provider. "In America we still have freedom" and calling people "totalitarians" are both a little off-the-hook which I think explains the downvotes.
- 8y ago

notatoad 8y ago

how does that sort of regulation actually work? You can obviously have a personal computer. surely you can have a few computers. at what point does the government say you have too many computers?

tinus_hn 8y ago
That’s why there are judges.
jsjohnst 8y ago
That’s easy, when you draw more power than rated for the residential power connections coming in.
rdiddly 8y ago
"The government" probably doesn't say it; people who are negatively impacted or forced to take on extra risk because of mining activity are the ones to say something. For example, the electricity provider probably objects precisely when the current you're drawing exceeds the safe limits of their equipment and wiring. If they're particularly on the ball, they at least come investigate as soon as they notice an unusually high current-draw for that individual residence. You're generally free to exceed the safety limits of the equipment and wiring within your own structure, since you pay all the costs of any resulting incident/accident. But if you're covering those costs via a homeowner's insurance policy, that policy/company might have some things to say about current loads and building codes, as prerequisites for covering you. In a rental property your ability to run mining rigs would depend on the lease, and the landlord's degree of vigilance in monitoring unusual electrical loads. If there's an incident or fire due to current-draw nobody noticed, it probably ends up in court. If you promised (by signing a lease with a relevant clause in it) that you wouldn't engage in excessive current-drawing activities, you lose that case pretty much instantly. Otherwise it'll be up to their side to prove that your negligence caused any losses or damages to the landlord's property, not to mention other tenants' property if they also sue you.
- notatoad 8y ago
  >"The government" probably doesn't say it; The comment I was replying to specifically says they do...