4 ms·

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bri

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to film it, is extremely common, and taking place between average, everyday people. This can further their fears of inferiority. Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Seriously, if these sovereign individuals can’t forge social relationships with others, especially women, and use that to further their understanding and connection with the real world, then that is their problem, as individuals. It’s not society’s fault that these individuals choose to not engage with society on society’s terms. It’s certainly not women’s fault and very much not their responsibility to fix.

Presquare 8y ago
> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Acknowledging the existence of a problem affecting men? > ... then that is their problem, as individuals ... I agree, but the society needs to acknowledge that it actually IS a genuine problem for these men. We can then encourage the development and adoption of technological solutions, such as sexual VR and sexbots. It might not be the ideal solution for these men, but at least it's a solution (and it puts no responsibility on women to do anything).
- te_chris 8y ago
  I actually agree with you, society does need to acknowledge that members are in trouble. I don't think anything that has come out of the MRA/Petersonian fringe is helping though. There certainly is problems with men/masculinity in society, it's both sad and tragic, as illustrated by the tragic suicide of Scott Hutchison a couple of weeks back. I'm convinced that all these people who think they're sticking up for men are only making things worse though. The answer doesn't lie in blaming female empowerment.
throwaway37585 8y ago
> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? What do you mean?
Sawamara 8y ago
One important caveat here to add. Just as it is not a failing black kid's problem ALONE that he does not have the opportunity to have a stable family and proper education, so is its society's burden to educate these men on etiquette AND provide them with a stable worldview that does not belittle them for not being like the demigods seen on tv (same as how we should not shame women for having body image issues, but rather tackle advertisement instead). I wont say its entirely society's fault, but we cant just ignore the problem. As that leads to Brexit, Trump,etc.
- te_chris 8y ago
  I absolutely agree. I was responding to parent who was posing this elaborate hypothetical whereby the person who goes incel (or whatever) is somehow absolved of the responsibility for their situation. I would argue that there are profound differences too between institutional racism and male sexual resentment.
  - Sawamara 8y ago
    "I would argue that there are profound differences too between institutional racism and male sexual resentment." Of course, institutional racism is several orders of magnitude more severe. (Update: wow, I get downvoted for this. Nice!)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
natalyarostova 8y ago
Political and social institutions are systems that require system level solutions. A call for individual impetus or responsibility to fix system issues isn't necessarily wrong, but it's usually futile. Consider: some set of features that identify an individual, over time, begin to predict a worse or less ideal state. Is the cause and solution most likely to be a collective individual moral failure, requiring a collective individual improvement? It's possible. But is it likely? Or perhaps a better question, is this proposed solution likely to improve the state of the world to one we all like? "Be better, it's not our responsibility to fix your issues." If this is repeated enough does the trend reverse? Or if it doesn't reverse, do we simply not care? If we don't think this will reverse the trend, and if we do care, then this seems like a poor strategy. You don't have to care or not care about any individual, and you don't have to take any individuals belief or claim at face value. That's the difference between trying to divide up lines and attribute moral defect to society or individual, and trying to map out a complex system at understand solutions that aren't about assigning blame or worth, but rather improving society for all. Still, an ability to have empathy for those who suffer, whether they are part of your side of the culture war or not, is (only in my opinion) a beautiful trait.
- te_chris 8y ago
  I really appreciate this comment. I agree and this has made me rethink my comment and the angle I took. The suicide of famous artists such as Chris Cornell and Scott Hutchison - particularly Hutchison - has really shocked me and made me think more widely about what it means to live happily as a man these days. I think we need more people thinking about it positively. And more people need to embrace and encourage civility as you've done. It's so easy to fling rocks in the culture wars, and satisfying too, but in a junk food way. As you say, there's a bigger picture. Thank you. I like the war and peace reference too ;)

Presquare 8y ago

> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Acknowledging the existence of a problem affecting men? > ... then that is their problem, as individuals ... I agree, but the society needs to acknowledge that it actually IS a genuine problem for these men. We can then encourage the development and adoption of technological solutions, such as sexual VR and sexbots. It might not be the ideal solution for these men, but at least it's a solution (and it puts no responsibility on women to do anything).

te_chris 8y ago
I actually agree with you, society does need to acknowledge that members are in trouble. I don't think anything that has come out of the MRA/Petersonian fringe is helping though. There certainly is problems with men/masculinity in society, it's both sad and tragic, as illustrated by the tragic suicide of Scott Hutchison a couple of weeks back. I'm convinced that all these people who think they're sticking up for men are only making things worse though. The answer doesn't lie in blaming female empowerment.

throwaway37585 8y ago

> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? What do you mean?

Sawamara 8y ago

One important caveat here to add. Just as it is not a failing black kid's problem ALONE that he does not have the opportunity to have a stable family and proper education, so is its society's burden to educate these men on etiquette AND provide them with a stable worldview that does not belittle them for not being like the demigods seen on tv (same as how we should not shame women for having body image issues, but rather tackle advertisement instead). I wont say its entirely society's fault, but we cant just ignore the problem. As that leads to Brexit, Trump,etc.

te_chris 8y ago
I absolutely agree. I was responding to parent who was posing this elaborate hypothetical whereby the person who goes incel (or whatever) is somehow absolved of the responsibility for their situation. I would argue that there are profound differences too between institutional racism and male sexual resentment.
- Sawamara 8y ago
  "I would argue that there are profound differences too between institutional racism and male sexual resentment." Of course, institutional racism is several orders of magnitude more severe. (Update: wow, I get downvoted for this. Nice!)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

natalyarostova 8y ago

Political and social institutions are systems that require system level solutions. A call for individual impetus or responsibility to fix system issues isn't necessarily wrong, but it's usually futile. Consider: some set of features that identify an individual, over time, begin to predict a worse or less ideal state. Is the cause and solution most likely to be a collective individual moral failure, requiring a collective individual improvement? It's possible. But is it likely? Or perhaps a better question, is this proposed solution likely to improve the state of the world to one we all like? "Be better, it's not our responsibility to fix your issues." If this is repeated enough does the trend reverse? Or if it doesn't reverse, do we simply not care? If we don't think this will reverse the trend, and if we do care, then this seems like a poor strategy. You don't have to care or not care about any individual, and you don't have to take any individuals belief or claim at face value. That's the difference between trying to divide up lines and attribute moral defect to society or individual, and trying to map out a complex system at understand solutions that aren't about assigning blame or worth, but rather improving society for all. Still, an ability to have empathy for those who suffer, whether they are part of your side of the culture war or not, is (only in my opinion) a beautiful trait.

te_chris 8y ago
I really appreciate this comment. I agree and this has made me rethink my comment and the angle I took. The suicide of famous artists such as Chris Cornell and Scott Hutchison - particularly Hutchison - has really shocked me and made me think more widely about what it means to live happily as a man these days. I think we need more people thinking about it positively. And more people need to embrace and encourage civility as you've done. It's so easy to fling rocks in the culture wars, and satisfying too, but in a junk food way. As you say, there's a bigger picture. Thank you. I like the war and peace reference too ;)