4 ms·

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dat

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to film it, is extremely common, and taking place between average, everyday people. This can further their fears of inferiority. This skirts a taboo that you can barely talk about: that personal preferences in dating are not judged to the same standard, and that movements of empowerment and positivity are clashing with everyone's free will in pursuing -- and especially articulating -- what they do and don't like. Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, but not dating someone because they're short is perfectly fine. The protocols around communicating preferences to others and getting them accepted by one's peers is a quagmire where social conventions haven't ventured, so everyone lies for self-preservation ("I like you as a friend", "I don't wanna be tied down"), and those left out are left to draw their own conclusions. This is all terribly unfortunate, but not really new; the incel movement, however, feeds not solely on rejection and obsessing over the base biological reasons thereof, but the implicit entitlement they they'd deserve otherwise.

k__ 8y ago
"Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic" What? Where I come from you're allowed to date who you deem to be attractive. Nobody cares if you don't date anyone because they're fat, dumb, small, poor or what not.
- quotemstr 8y ago
  Right. Personal dating preferences are sarosanct. There's been a tremendous effort over the past 50 years to replace freedom of association with egalitarian social engineering, and it's at dating where society has drawn a firm line and said "This far! No further!". While there are activists out there attempting to use the standard social shaming toolkit to influence dating, their tactics won't work. Reproduction is too deep-seated a drive to tamper with that way. And fortunately, defeat here will blunt the entire array of tools. It's as if an entire generation is hearing this internal monologue: "You mean that if I want you to consider me a 'woke' and good person, I need to have sex with this person I don't consider attractive? To hell with you and your morality then."
pjc50 8y ago
> Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, but not dating someone because they're short is perfectly fine. As they say, "'No' is a complete sentence." Anyone can decline to date anyone for any reason you like. And it's probably best not to give reasons, especially if it's something intrinsic or hard to change. Many people lack a peer group capable of giving them effective dating advice. Men who don't have any friends who aren't straight guys of their own age should probably fix that first. And work on opening up emotionally.
- undercover123 8y ago
  No one dates a fatty. This is why fatties have to get rich to get women.
- Noumenon72 8y ago
  I don't look to my peer group to provide me with advice on investing, diet, apartment hunting, or programming, so the notion of finding a peer group to advise me on dating would never occur to me.
gtowey 8y ago
> This skirts a taboo that you can barely talk about: that personal preferences in dating are not judged to the same standard, and that movements of empowerment and positivity are clashing with everyone's free will in pursuing -- and especially articulating -- what they do and don't like. Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, but not dating someone because they're short is perfectly fine. Do you have sources to cite on that? Because this honestly sounds like an incel talking point. The idea that it's ok for women to judge and reject men -- for being short, or any other number of male-oriented deficiencies -- but men are not similarly free to reject women based on their appearance. It's bullshit and it doesn't really exist. Anecdotally, I've never once seen someone be judged for not wanting to date someone no matter how shallow the reason. It's just another way in which these men are claiming to be unfairly victimized in the dating world.
- majos 8y ago
  I figure that most incel-type dudes have never had the experience of rejecting someone romantically, for any reason, but have been rejected. The complaint that women can be shallow and men can't (which isn't true; everyone, largely, is shallow to some degree) is really a face-saving way of complaining that women get to screen and reject men, and incel-type dudes don't feel like they have anywhere near that level of agency. These are basic human-type concerns. Which makes the angry, bitter, you-definitely-can't-empathize-with-me rhetoric of many incels even more frustrating.
- enimodas 8y ago
  A search for 'double standards' on /r/tinder will show you some anecdata for example.
- arximboldi 8y ago
  While I agree that the message sounds a bit like that, I think he is right about that point. For me an eye opener was Tinder. Where I live it seems like half of the women have something like "Don't even try if you are less than 1.80cm" or something like that in their profile. I am actually relatively tall and happy with my sex life, so I don't take the offense personally, yet I can't help but wonder what would happen if a guy wrote something like that about weight or boob size, for example? (I sometimes consider opening a fake female account to see if some men actually do that...) Also interestingly, a lot of women profiles are just a collection of attributes they don't want in guys, written in a very negative language... instead of, I would expect, just some positive things about themselves. I wonder where that delusional way of looking at themselves--as an inherent "price" to be "won" by the very best in men--comes from? Are men in online dating like that too? In our society we are reflecting a on what "masculinity" means, and scrutinizing and redefining male sexual behavior. This is a good thing. But I wonder if maybe it would also help young women get an understanding of femininity that is not based on these backwards ideas that could help everyone have healthier and more equal relationships.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, No, advertising, either directly to the subject or to other people specifically referencing the subject, a personal characteristic as the reason for declining to date someone has always (well, since the early 1980s, at least, don't really know how it was received before I was in elementary school) been recognized as a means of attacking that person and often a bullying tactic, (doubly so when it is done prospectively.) Not dating someone itself, for any reason, is not generally, even now, and irrespective of the actual reason.
te_chris 8y ago
> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to film it, is extremely common, and taking place between average, everyday people. This can further their fears of inferiority. Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Seriously, if these sovereign individuals can’t forge social relationships with others, especially women, and use that to further their understanding and connection with the real world, then that is their problem, as individuals. It’s not society’s fault that these individuals choose to not engage with society on society’s terms. It’s certainly not women’s fault and very much not their responsibility to fix.
- Presquare 8y ago
  > Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Acknowledging the existence of a problem affecting men? > ... then that is their problem, as individuals ... I agree, but the society needs to acknowledge that it actually IS a genuine problem for these men. We can then encourage the development and adoption of technological solutions, such as sexual VR and sexbots. It might not be the ideal solution for these men, but at least it's a solution (and it puts no responsibility on women to do anything).
  - te_chris 8y ago
    I actually agree with you, society does need to acknowledge that members are in trouble. I don't think anything that has come out of the MRA/Petersonian fringe is helping though. There certainly is problems with men/masculinity in society, it's both sad and tragic, as illustrated by the tragic suicide of Scott Hutchison a couple of weeks back. I'm convinced that all these people who think they're sticking up for men are only making things worse though. The answer doesn't lie in blaming female empowerment.
- throwaway37585 8y ago
  > Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? What do you mean?
grondilu 8y ago
> The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. IMHO, much worse is the prohibition of prostitution. In my country, pornography can be found for free on internet but prostitution has recently been completely banned. That puts a young man who watches pornography but has, for one reason or an other, absolutely no idea how to get laid, in a very difficult position. I can totally understand how that would make him angry.
- undercover123 8y ago
  Europe? Don't worry. Become a Muslim. Rape is expected in their culture and nothing won't happen in a court if you got this card blanc.
ouid 8y ago
>declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic what world do you live on? Declining to date someone and bullying them are very obviously different things.
mnm1 8y ago
Declining to date someone fat is seen as bullying? That's a new one. I know stupid, controlling people who would say that declining to date someone of a different race is racist, although it's clearly not, but I've never heard this level of stupidity. Maybe there are some extreme morons who really think like this and don't understand the concept of personal choice or even the concept of personal taste and attraction but these idiots are certainly not the majority not do they dictate what is and isn't acceptable as far as dating. In fact the idea of someone else dictating who one dates or not is beyond stupid, controlling, infuriating, and authoritarian. I don't doubt that such shitty people exist, but their hate-because that's the only thing that drives such insane ideas-does not dictate culture.
bitL 8y ago
> Declining to date someone because they're fat It's how you wrap it with elegance and allure: just that your preference is to date e.g. petite females. Don't mention fat etc. at all. Or just simply state the person is not your type and walk away. They are pretty aware what they are doing, including taking photos from "slim angle" and trying to sell you "sub-prime CDS as class A-shares", and then just play usual shame game to force you to cater to them. Ignore it; it's like a bad business decision, be strong, enforce what you like and not what they would like you to - you can tell them once they can e.g. run 100m sprint in 13s, then you can date, as sporty ladies make you excited etc. And you even give them a S.M.A.R.T. goal; not that it matters as they will be stuffing themselves with whatever sugar they find, but at least you don't make a political mistake of aligning with the signature of fat shaming.

k__ 8y ago

"Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic" What? Where I come from you're allowed to date who you deem to be attractive. Nobody cares if you don't date anyone because they're fat, dumb, small, poor or what not.

quotemstr 8y ago
Right. Personal dating preferences are sarosanct. There's been a tremendous effort over the past 50 years to replace freedom of association with egalitarian social engineering, and it's at dating where society has drawn a firm line and said "This far! No further!". While there are activists out there attempting to use the standard social shaming toolkit to influence dating, their tactics won't work. Reproduction is too deep-seated a drive to tamper with that way. And fortunately, defeat here will blunt the entire array of tools. It's as if an entire generation is hearing this internal monologue: "You mean that if I want you to consider me a 'woke' and good person, I need to have sex with this person I don't consider attractive? To hell with you and your morality then."

pjc50 8y ago

> Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, but not dating someone because they're short is perfectly fine. As they say, "'No' is a complete sentence." Anyone can decline to date anyone for any reason you like. And it's probably best not to give reasons, especially if it's something intrinsic or hard to change. Many people lack a peer group capable of giving them effective dating advice. Men who don't have any friends who aren't straight guys of their own age should probably fix that first. And work on opening up emotionally.

undercover123 8y ago
No one dates a fatty. This is why fatties have to get rich to get women.
Noumenon72 8y ago
I don't look to my peer group to provide me with advice on investing, diet, apartment hunting, or programming, so the notion of finding a peer group to advise me on dating would never occur to me.

gtowey 8y ago

> This skirts a taboo that you can barely talk about: that personal preferences in dating are not judged to the same standard, and that movements of empowerment and positivity are clashing with everyone's free will in pursuing -- and especially articulating -- what they do and don't like. Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, but not dating someone because they're short is perfectly fine. Do you have sources to cite on that? Because this honestly sounds like an incel talking point. The idea that it's ok for women to judge and reject men -- for being short, or any other number of male-oriented deficiencies -- but men are not similarly free to reject women based on their appearance. It's bullshit and it doesn't really exist. Anecdotally, I've never once seen someone be judged for not wanting to date someone no matter how shallow the reason. It's just another way in which these men are claiming to be unfairly victimized in the dating world.

majos 8y ago
I figure that most incel-type dudes have never had the experience of rejecting someone romantically, for any reason, but have been rejected. The complaint that women can be shallow and men can't (which isn't true; everyone, largely, is shallow to some degree) is really a face-saving way of complaining that women get to screen and reject men, and incel-type dudes don't feel like they have anywhere near that level of agency. These are basic human-type concerns. Which makes the angry, bitter, you-definitely-can't-empathize-with-me rhetoric of many incels even more frustrating.
enimodas 8y ago
A search for 'double standards' on /r/tinder will show you some anecdata for example.
arximboldi 8y ago
While I agree that the message sounds a bit like that, I think he is right about that point. For me an eye opener was Tinder. Where I live it seems like half of the women have something like "Don't even try if you are less than 1.80cm" or something like that in their profile. I am actually relatively tall and happy with my sex life, so I don't take the offense personally, yet I can't help but wonder what would happen if a guy wrote something like that about weight or boob size, for example? (I sometimes consider opening a fake female account to see if some men actually do that...) Also interestingly, a lot of women profiles are just a collection of attributes they don't want in guys, written in a very negative language... instead of, I would expect, just some positive things about themselves. I wonder where that delusional way of looking at themselves--as an inherent "price" to be "won" by the very best in men--comes from? Are men in online dating like that too? In our society we are reflecting a on what "masculinity" means, and scrutinizing and redefining male sexual behavior. This is a good thing. But I wonder if maybe it would also help young women get an understanding of femininity that is not based on these backwards ideas that could help everyone have healthier and more equal relationships.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, No, advertising, either directly to the subject or to other people specifically referencing the subject, a personal characteristic as the reason for declining to date someone has always (well, since the early 1980s, at least, don't really know how it was received before I was in elementary school) been recognized as a means of attacking that person and often a bullying tactic, (doubly so when it is done prospectively.) Not dating someone itself, for any reason, is not generally, even now, and irrespective of the actual reason.

te_chris 8y ago

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to film it, is extremely common, and taking place between average, everyday people. This can further their fears of inferiority. Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Seriously, if these sovereign individuals can’t forge social relationships with others, especially women, and use that to further their understanding and connection with the real world, then that is their problem, as individuals. It’s not society’s fault that these individuals choose to not engage with society on society’s terms. It’s certainly not women’s fault and very much not their responsibility to fix.

Presquare 8y ago
> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Acknowledging the existence of a problem affecting men? > ... then that is their problem, as individuals ... I agree, but the society needs to acknowledge that it actually IS a genuine problem for these men. We can then encourage the development and adoption of technological solutions, such as sexual VR and sexbots. It might not be the ideal solution for these men, but at least it's a solution (and it puts no responsibility on women to do anything).
- te_chris 8y ago
  I actually agree with you, society does need to acknowledge that members are in trouble. I don't think anything that has come out of the MRA/Petersonian fringe is helping though. There certainly is problems with men/masculinity in society, it's both sad and tragic, as illustrated by the tragic suicide of Scott Hutchison a couple of weeks back. I'm convinced that all these people who think they're sticking up for men are only making things worse though. The answer doesn't lie in blaming female empowerment.
throwaway37585 8y ago
> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? What do you mean?

grondilu 8y ago

> The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. IMHO, much worse is the prohibition of prostitution. In my country, pornography can be found for free on internet but prostitution has recently been completely banned. That puts a young man who watches pornography but has, for one reason or an other, absolutely no idea how to get laid, in a very difficult position. I can totally understand how that would make him angry.

undercover123 8y ago
Europe? Don't worry. Become a Muslim. Rape is expected in their culture and nothing won't happen in a court if you got this card blanc.

ouid 8y ago

>declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic what world do you live on? Declining to date someone and bullying them are very obviously different things.

mnm1 8y ago

Declining to date someone fat is seen as bullying? That's a new one. I know stupid, controlling people who would say that declining to date someone of a different race is racist, although it's clearly not, but I've never heard this level of stupidity. Maybe there are some extreme morons who really think like this and don't understand the concept of personal choice or even the concept of personal taste and attraction but these idiots are certainly not the majority not do they dictate what is and isn't acceptable as far as dating. In fact the idea of someone else dictating who one dates or not is beyond stupid, controlling, infuriating, and authoritarian. I don't doubt that such shitty people exist, but their hate-because that's the only thing that drives such insane ideas-does not dictate culture.

bitL 8y ago

> Declining to date someone because they're fat It's how you wrap it with elegance and allure: just that your preference is to date e.g. petite females. Don't mention fat etc. at all. Or just simply state the person is not your type and walk away. They are pretty aware what they are doing, including taking photos from "slim angle" and trying to sell you "sub-prime CDS as class A-shares", and then just play usual shame game to force you to cater to them. Ignore it; it's like a bad business decision, be strong, enforce what you like and not what they would like you to - you can tell them once they can e.g. run 100m sprint in 13s, then you can date, as sporty ladies make you excited etc. And you even give them a S.M.A.R.T. goal; not that it matters as they will be stuffing themselves with whatever sugar they find, but at least you don't make a political mistake of aligning with the signature of fat shaming.