4 ms·

Enforced monogamy, i.e., marriage

cm2012 8y ago
That would just be monogamy. The thing people are calling stupid is the idea that low status men should be assigned wives forcefully to prevent them from being sad, which is what some people have actually proposed.
- crdoconnor 8y ago
  Isn't that essentially what laws against bigamy are for?
- mundo 8y ago
  > the idea that low status men should be assigned wives forcefully to prevent them from being sad, which is what some people have actually proposed. Who proposed that?
  - acqq 8y ago
    Some articles that explain the background: https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-context-of-jordan-petersons-thoughts-on-enforced-monogamy/ https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-context-of-jordan-peters... also http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/incel-meaning-explained http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/incel-meaning-explained
  - lixtra 8y ago
    GP may refer to poor sources such as https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EkMNXGvzdLw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EkMNXGvzdLw
- emsy 8y ago
  It's pretty clear that TC is alluding to Jordan Peterson. When I read the enforced monogamy headline I thought that's an incredibly stupid thing for him to say, only to find out that (surprise, surprise) it was taken out of context. What he actually said can still be criticized, but isn't even worth a headline.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  Let's be fair here, no one really cares about them being 'sad', the trouble is that having a lot of sexually frustrated young men around isn't going to help the stability of your society. Which isn't to say that the way we dealt with this in the past, which was keeping women out of the work force and making them dependent on men for survival and status, is something we should go back to, just that there are consequences we'll have to recognize and deal with somehow.
- ar-jan 8y ago
  False. That's how how was (deliberately?) misinterpreted. But "enforced monogamy" is a term used in e.g. evolutionary biology to describe, basically, just a societal norm of monogamy, maybe enforced by law (polygamy is illegal in most places). No-one's suggesting forcing women to marry someone.
  - Mediterraneo10 8y ago
    > No-one's suggesting forcing women to marry someone. The "incel" community frequently calls for the state to provide partners to incels. They point to how in the Netherlands, the disabled have access to sex worker services, subsidized by the state. They claim that their inability to find sexual partners is comparable to a disability, and therefore the state should help. Then, some portion of those incels believe that men should be able to expect that their sexual partners do not have any other partners, so suddenly this turns into believing that the state should provide incels a monogamous, long-term partner, essentially a wife.
    - ar-jan 8y ago
      But this is an extreme and absurd postition from a small group. It's not reasonable that people attribute this to Peterson. I would agree that he could've seen this coming, and could have clarified what he means from the start, rather than after the controversy.
      - cm2012 8y ago
        He is purposefully obtuse. This way, hard core incels can believe he means the more extreme options, medium believers believe he means wherever positions they fall on the spectrum, and he has plausible deniability for journalists.
        ar-jan 8y ago
        I don't think so. The problem is you have to be aware of other things he's saying to get at the correct, more charitable, interpretation. Namely, he's calling on people not to blame others or society at large for their problems, but to improve their own life and become a desirable potential mate. That's opposite of what he's accused of.
- bitL 8y ago
  > to prevent them from being sad Or to make sure they are sad and not intrinsically happy alone?: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902 ;-)
- ggg9990 8y ago
  That’s not the only way that monogamy can be enforced. For example, in many countries, sex outside of marriage is illegal with severe penalties, and divorce and adultery are either illegal or lead to social ostracism. These countries don’t assign anyone a spouse but they have very high rates of early marriage and low rates of divorce (even in abusive marriages) because of you want to have sex, which most people do, you need to get married.

cm2012 8y ago

That would just be monogamy. The thing people are calling stupid is the idea that low status men should be assigned wives forcefully to prevent them from being sad, which is what some people have actually proposed.

crdoconnor 8y ago
Isn't that essentially what laws against bigamy are for?
mundo 8y ago
> the idea that low status men should be assigned wives forcefully to prevent them from being sad, which is what some people have actually proposed. Who proposed that?
- acqq 8y ago
  Some articles that explain the background: https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-context-of-jordan-petersons-thoughts-on-enforced-monogamy/ https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-context-of-jordan-peters... also http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/incel-meaning-explained http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/incel-meaning-explained
- lixtra 8y ago
  GP may refer to poor sources such as https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EkMNXGvzdLw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EkMNXGvzdLw
emsy 8y ago
It's pretty clear that TC is alluding to Jordan Peterson. When I read the enforced monogamy headline I thought that's an incredibly stupid thing for him to say, only to find out that (surprise, surprise) it was taken out of context. What he actually said can still be criticized, but isn't even worth a headline.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
Let's be fair here, no one really cares about them being 'sad', the trouble is that having a lot of sexually frustrated young men around isn't going to help the stability of your society. Which isn't to say that the way we dealt with this in the past, which was keeping women out of the work force and making them dependent on men for survival and status, is something we should go back to, just that there are consequences we'll have to recognize and deal with somehow.
ar-jan 8y ago
False. That's how how was (deliberately?) misinterpreted. But "enforced monogamy" is a term used in e.g. evolutionary biology to describe, basically, just a societal norm of monogamy, maybe enforced by law (polygamy is illegal in most places). No-one's suggesting forcing women to marry someone.
- Mediterraneo10 8y ago
  > No-one's suggesting forcing women to marry someone. The "incel" community frequently calls for the state to provide partners to incels. They point to how in the Netherlands, the disabled have access to sex worker services, subsidized by the state. They claim that their inability to find sexual partners is comparable to a disability, and therefore the state should help. Then, some portion of those incels believe that men should be able to expect that their sexual partners do not have any other partners, so suddenly this turns into believing that the state should provide incels a monogamous, long-term partner, essentially a wife.
  - ar-jan 8y ago
    But this is an extreme and absurd postition from a small group. It's not reasonable that people attribute this to Peterson. I would agree that he could've seen this coming, and could have clarified what he means from the start, rather than after the controversy.
    - cm2012 8y ago
      He is purposefully obtuse. This way, hard core incels can believe he means the more extreme options, medium believers believe he means wherever positions they fall on the spectrum, and he has plausible deniability for journalists.
      - ar-jan 8y ago
        I don't think so. The problem is you have to be aware of other things he's saying to get at the correct, more charitable, interpretation. Namely, he's calling on people not to blame others or society at large for their problems, but to improve their own life and become a desirable potential mate. That's opposite of what he's accused of.
bitL 8y ago
> to prevent them from being sad Or to make sure they are sad and not intrinsically happy alone?: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902 ;-)
ggg9990 8y ago
That’s not the only way that monogamy can be enforced. For example, in many countries, sex outside of marriage is illegal with severe penalties, and divorce and adultery are either illegal or lead to social ostracism. These countries don’t assign anyone a spouse but they have very high rates of early marriage and low rates of divorce (even in abusive marriages) because of you want to have sex, which most people do, you need to get married.