6 ms·

A global array of telescopes reveals details on event horizon scales in Sgr A*

132 points by okket 8y ago

Cyphase 8y ago
The original link is HTTPS with a self-signed certificate. Here's the same story from another source: https://phys.org/news/2018-05-apex-glimpse-heart-darkness.html https://phys.org/news/2018-05-apex-glimpse-heart-darkness.ht...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- vardump 8y ago
  It's not a self signed cert.
  - Cyphase 8y ago
    Whoops, my bad. I had disabled that CA (T-TeleSec GlobalRoot Class 2) in Firefox at one point, along with all of the others, as an experiment to see how many are really needed. I haven't had to re-enable one in ages.
mef51 8y ago
journal paper: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e/meta http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e/m...
- privong 8y ago
  And the preprint: https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.09223 https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.09223
  - Tepix 8y ago
    Thanks!
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  Man, what a dissapointment! I thought the EHT was done with their analysis of the 2017 run, but its just apax getting another publication out of old data.
nikhizzle 8y ago
Can someone please explain simply?
- mirimir 8y ago
  Resolution for telescopes is ~size/wavelength. But there's lots of dust between us and the center of our galaxy, so you can't see it with visible light. Typical options are x-ray to gamma radiation, and long IR to microwave. To get decent resolution with microwave, you need ~10^4 km telescopes. This array approximates that. Anyway, they're fitting their data to models for source shape. They argue that it's neither a point source, nor a uniform source of size expected for the accretion disk. Bottom line, I think, it's probably hot spots. Our black hole is fortunately rather quiet. We've observed pulses of x-ray radiation from accreting stuff, scattered by gas clouds near the galactic center.[0] Also fortunately, the black hole's axis doesn't point near us, so we're relatively safe from getting fried. 0) http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2007/gcle/ http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2007/gcle/
- acqq 8y ago
  An introduction from Science, March 2017: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/global-telescope-may-finally-see-event-horizon-our-galaxys-giant-black-hole http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/global-telescope-may-... "Last year [2015-2016 (2)] researchers "heard" black holes for the first time, when they detected the gravitational waves unleashed as two of them crashed together and merged. Now, they want to see a black hole, or at least its silhouette. Next month, astronomers will harness radio telescopes across the globe to create the equivalent of a single Earth-spanning dish—an instrument powerful enough, they hope, to image black holes backlit by the incandescent gas swirling around them. Their targets are the supermassive black hole at the heart of our Milky Way galaxy, known as Sagittarius A* (Sgr A*), and an even bigger one in the neighboring galaxy M87." (Also see (1)) Now the article in the current main HN link talks about and links to the work just published (2018 May 24, and open access): http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e From the abstract: "The measured nonzero closure phases rule out point-symmetric emission. We discuss our results in the context of simple geometric models that capture the basic characteristics and brightness distributions of disk- and jet-dominated models and show that both can reproduce the observed data." Translated, approximately: "what we see when we analyze the data is something that probably isn't symmetric in all directions and can be either disk-like or has jets." The humanity is "seeing" (using the black hole in the center of our galaxy for the first time! We are looking (combining the radio telescopes across the world as a single telescope and using complex calculations to calculate the results) at the "event horizon" of the black hole in the center of our galaxy, the place from where nothing escapes! And the first picture is blurry but hints on "not point-like." (1) And the current article ends: “The results are an important step to ongoing development of the Event Horizon Telescope”, says Sheperd Doeleman from the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and director of the EHT project. “The analysis of new observations, which since 2017 also include ALMA, will bring us another step closer to imaging the black hole in the centre of our Galaxy.” --------- 1) Another approachable introduction to what is being done, with a lot of illustrations, is here: https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/2018-will-be-the-year-humanity-directly-sees-our-first-black-hole-c20a1429d3e2 https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/2018-will-be-the-year-... 2) 2015 collected data, 2016 presented
stephengillie 8y ago
The angular resolution is mind-blowing. Combining these telescopes gives us resolutions on the order of the orbit of Mercury around the sun, at a range of our distance from the center of the galaxy. If the Earth were the size of our eyes, it would be like seeing objects of diameter 11.5 meters (37.7 feet) from about 7622 km (4736 mi) away. Almost like seeing a small apartment building in London from Los Angeles, with the naked eye. > The increased angular resolution provided by the APEX telescope now reveals details in the asymmetric and not point-like source structure, which are as small as 36 million km. This corresponds to dimensions that are only 3 times larger than the hypothetical size of the black hole (3 Schwarzschild radii). > “It reveals details in the central radio source which are smaller than the expected size of the accretion disk”, adds Thomas Krichbaum, initiator of the mm-VLBI observations with APEX. Synthesizing with Wikipedia: > The current highest-resolution measurement, made at a wavelength of 1.3 mm, indicated an angular diameter for the source of 37 μas.[12] At a distance of 26,000 light-years, this yields a diameter of 44 million kilometers. For comparison, Earth is 150 million kilometers from the Sun, and Mercury is 46 million kilometers from the Sun at perihelion. The proper motion of Sgr A* is approximately −2.70 mas per year for the right ascension and −5.6 mas per year for the declination.[13][0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A* Diameter Earth 12,756,000 m Eye 0.025 m Ratio 510240000x
- mozumder 8y ago
  The best part is that they have to know the alignment the telescopes within .5 mm of each other, across thousands of miles.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Astounding. How can they do that?
    - NeutronStar 8y ago
      Maths and computers.
SiempreViernes 8y ago
Nothing new here, the data is from 2013 and this paper is probably just APEX getting some ”longest baseline” fame in before the real results from the 2017 run, with a telescope on the south pole, relegate them to the ungloriuos support role. For an actual update about the event horizon telescope, see here: https://eventhorizontelescope.org/blog/eht-status-update-may-1-2018 https://eventhorizontelescope.org/blog/eht-status-update-may...
basicplus2 8y ago
The real beauty of Very Long Baseline Interferometry is that different sources have different noise thus a common signal of large order of magnitude smaller than the noise can be identified.

132 points by okket 8y ago

The original link is HTTPS with a self-signed certificate. Here's the same story from another source: https://phys.org/news/2018-05-apex-glimpse-heart-darkness.html https://phys.org/news/2018-05-apex-glimpse-heart-darkness.ht...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
vardump 8y ago
It's not a self signed cert.
- Cyphase 8y ago
  Whoops, my bad. I had disabled that CA (T-TeleSec GlobalRoot Class 2) in Firefox at one point, along with all of the others, as an experiment to see how many are really needed. I haven't had to re-enable one in ages.

mef51 8y ago

journal paper: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e/meta http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e/m...

privong 8y ago
And the preprint: https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.09223 https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.09223
- Tepix 8y ago
  Thanks!
SiempreViernes 8y ago
Man, what a dissapointment! I thought the EHT was done with their analysis of the 2017 run, but its just apax getting another publication out of old data.

nikhizzle 8y ago

Can someone please explain simply?

mirimir 8y ago
Resolution for telescopes is ~size/wavelength. But there's lots of dust between us and the center of our galaxy, so you can't see it with visible light. Typical options are x-ray to gamma radiation, and long IR to microwave. To get decent resolution with microwave, you need ~10^4 km telescopes. This array approximates that. Anyway, they're fitting their data to models for source shape. They argue that it's neither a point source, nor a uniform source of size expected for the accretion disk. Bottom line, I think, it's probably hot spots. Our black hole is fortunately rather quiet. We've observed pulses of x-ray radiation from accreting stuff, scattered by gas clouds near the galactic center.[0] Also fortunately, the black hole's axis doesn't point near us, so we're relatively safe from getting fried. 0) http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2007/gcle/ http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2007/gcle/
acqq 8y ago
An introduction from Science, March 2017: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/global-telescope-may-finally-see-event-horizon-our-galaxys-giant-black-hole http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/global-telescope-may-... "Last year [2015-2016 (2)] researchers "heard" black holes for the first time, when they detected the gravitational waves unleashed as two of them crashed together and merged. Now, they want to see a black hole, or at least its silhouette. Next month, astronomers will harness radio telescopes across the globe to create the equivalent of a single Earth-spanning dish—an instrument powerful enough, they hope, to image black holes backlit by the incandescent gas swirling around them. Their targets are the supermassive black hole at the heart of our Milky Way galaxy, known as Sagittarius A* (Sgr A*), and an even bigger one in the neighboring galaxy M87." (Also see (1)) Now the article in the current main HN link talks about and links to the work just published (2018 May 24, and open access): http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aabe2e From the abstract: "The measured nonzero closure phases rule out point-symmetric emission. We discuss our results in the context of simple geometric models that capture the basic characteristics and brightness distributions of disk- and jet-dominated models and show that both can reproduce the observed data." Translated, approximately: "what we see when we analyze the data is something that probably isn't symmetric in all directions and can be either disk-like or has jets." The humanity is "seeing" (using the black hole in the center of our galaxy for the first time! We are looking (combining the radio telescopes across the world as a single telescope and using complex calculations to calculate the results) at the "event horizon" of the black hole in the center of our galaxy, the place from where nothing escapes! And the first picture is blurry but hints on "not point-like." (1) And the current article ends: “The results are an important step to ongoing development of the Event Horizon Telescope”, says Sheperd Doeleman from the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and director of the EHT project. “The analysis of new observations, which since 2017 also include ALMA, will bring us another step closer to imaging the black hole in the centre of our Galaxy.” --------- 1) Another approachable introduction to what is being done, with a lot of illustrations, is here: https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/2018-will-be-the-year-humanity-directly-sees-our-first-black-hole-c20a1429d3e2 https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/2018-will-be-the-year-... 2) 2015 collected data, 2016 presented

stephengillie 8y ago

The angular resolution is mind-blowing. Combining these telescopes gives us resolutions on the order of the orbit of Mercury around the sun, at a range of our distance from the center of the galaxy. If the Earth were the size of our eyes, it would be like seeing objects of diameter 11.5 meters (37.7 feet) from about 7622 km (4736 mi) away. Almost like seeing a small apartment building in London from Los Angeles, with the naked eye. > The increased angular resolution provided by the APEX telescope now reveals details in the asymmetric and not point-like source structure, which are as small as 36 million km. This corresponds to dimensions that are only 3 times larger than the hypothetical size of the black hole (3 Schwarzschild radii). > “It reveals details in the central radio source which are smaller than the expected size of the accretion disk”, adds Thomas Krichbaum, initiator of the mm-VLBI observations with APEX. Synthesizing with Wikipedia: > The current highest-resolution measurement, made at a wavelength of 1.3 mm, indicated an angular diameter for the source of 37 μas.[12] At a distance of 26,000 light-years, this yields a diameter of 44 million kilometers. For comparison, Earth is 150 million kilometers from the Sun, and Mercury is 46 million kilometers from the Sun at perihelion. The proper motion of Sgr A* is approximately −2.70 mas per year for the right ascension and −5.6 mas per year for the declination.[13][0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A* Diameter Earth 12,756,000 m Eye 0.025 m Ratio 510240000x

mozumder 8y ago
The best part is that they have to know the alignment the telescopes within .5 mm of each other, across thousands of miles.
- mikeash 8y ago
  Astounding. How can they do that?
  - NeutronStar 8y ago
    Maths and computers.

SiempreViernes 8y ago

Nothing new here, the data is from 2013 and this paper is probably just APEX getting some ”longest baseline” fame in before the real results from the 2017 run, with a telescope on the south pole, relegate them to the ungloriuos support role. For an actual update about the event horizon telescope, see here: https://eventhorizontelescope.org/blog/eht-status-update-may-1-2018 https://eventhorizontelescope.org/blog/eht-status-update-may...

basicplus2 8y ago

The real beauty of Very Long Baseline Interferometry is that different sources have different noise thus a common signal of large order of magnitude smaller than the noise can be identified.