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I don't understand anyone who doesn't learn because they're curious. Because it's fun. Because they enjoy it. Intellectual curiosity. It must be very odd progr

by points 16y ago

I don't understand anyone who doesn't learn because they're curious. Because it's fun. Because they enjoy it. Intellectual curiosity. It must be very odd programming 'professionally', only as a job and not as something you love first and foremost. The problem with learning anything IMHO is when you don't enjoy it enough to want to learn it. And maybe that's a good signal that you shouldn't. Things are so much easier when you love what you do.

mahmud 16y ago
Yep. Same here. I waited tables and coded on my break for fun. Didn't even think it could be a career, since I was self-taught.
BrandonM 16y ago
Learning to program is pretty darn fun. Learning brand new paradigms is pretty awesome. Building things in new, better, easier ways as you get knowledge and experience is wonderful. Learning how to program in a language with a similar amount of power to one that you're already intimately familiar with is pretty darn frustrating. It's hard to be intellectually curious when you're just learning new rules for the same game. It must be very odd programming in your spare time, not getting paid for something that is inherently laborious and valuable. There are too many other people, places, and things that I love first and foremost to list programming for free as one of them.
- points 16y ago
  > " There are too many other people, places, and things that I love first and foremost to list programming for free as one of them." This is something I think that is a great sign of someone who you should/shouldn't hire. The best interview question is "So what side projects are you working on out of hours?". If they shrug and answer 'none', politely show them the door, yet it's surprising just how many programmers don't seem to have/want side projects - I guess they're doing it for the money rather than the love of it. Definitely, life's about balance - spending time with family, living, eating, sleeping, etc but it seems like real hackers genuinely enjoy hacking, and want to play - even out of hours.
  - BrandonM 16y ago
    ...and now you're a discriminatory hirer. Don't get me wrong. I love to build things. I love writing programs that improve my life in some way. I love that I can see a difficulty in someone else's life and tangibly improve it (for free if it's easy and you're a friend, or for a fair fee otherwise). Programming is fun. What is not fun is the mental masturbation of keeping up-to-date on all the latest-and-greatest languages and frameworks. What is not fun is building something with no tangible benefit. What is not fun is being insulted and dismissed by people who expect everyone to have the same interests and motivations as themselves. In your list of "balance", not once do you mention friends. I have a few groups of friends (totaling probably 30-40 people) in my city that I hang out with a couple times a month, some of them a couple times a week. I have more friends from my hometown that I visit once every month or two. I have other friends in other cities that I see a few times a year. If you subtracted all of that from my life, I would probably have an extra 50 hours per week to spend hacking. No deal. Just because I don't like spending my leisure time hacking doesn't mean that I don't genuinely enjoy the time that I do spend hacking. It doesn't mean that I don't have grandiose plans for things that I want to build (and make money from!). Your attitude about what constitutes a balanced life and a good hacker is very shortsighted and frankly offensive. I have several friends who are musicians. A couple of them make up one of my favorite bands, having a really cool and unique sound. In my time hanging out with them, we watch movies, grab something to eat, lounge around, party, and generally enjoy each other. We don't spend much time at all playing music just for fun. When they are "doing music", they are either writing a new song, improving an old song, recording, performing, practicing something new and useful, or rehearsing for an upcoming gig. All of their musical work leads to money in some form. Why do we expect hackers to work for free in their leisure time?
    - points 16y ago
      > "...and now you're a discriminatory hirer." Damn right. I hire based on who will be good at the job. > "What is not fun is the mental masturbation of keeping up-to-date on all the latest-and-greatest languages and frameworks. What is not fun is building something with no tangible benefit. What is not fun is being insulted and dismissed by people who expect everyone to have the same interests and motivations as themselves." Couldn't agree more. > " Your attitude about what constitutes a balanced life and a good hacker is very shortsighted and frankly offensive." Sorry, but you're kinda proving my point. The fact you don't want to spend more time on hacking rather than spending time with friends, means you'd make a bad employee for a startup. > "Why do we expect hackers to work for free in their leisure time?" I didn't say that at all. And FWIW, I play in a band as well. But I also spend an hour or so a day just playing for fun - because I enjoy it.
- InclinedPlane 16y ago
  You could say the same thing about music, architecture, wood-working, painting, cooking, writing, etc. In general, people who have a heart-felt passion for the art are likelier to be better at it than others. If all of the software in the world that was created out of passion and love for the craft suddenly disappeared overnight the world would be a much worse place.
  - BrandonM 16y ago
    > If all of the software in the world that was created out of passion and love for the craft suddenly disappeared overnight the world would be a much worse place. That is a problem in my opinion. If someone is creating that much value, that person should be getting appropriately compensated.
  - gjm11 16y ago
    > If all of the software in the world that was created out of passion and love for the craft suddenly disappeared overnight the world would be a much worse place. It would also be pretty bad if we suddenly lost all the software that was created primarily for money.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
run4yourlives 16y ago
Conversely, I have a tough time understanding anyone that spends inordinate amounts of time tinkering away on nothing, just because. You can "love" to program but that doesn't mean you want to do it all day long. The love can come from the act of solving a problem, not the act of admiring how elegant the code works. You need to disassociate the enjoyment from the purpose; they are not linked.
- jamesbritt 16y ago
  Suppose I rephrase this, with a twist: "You can 'love' to paint but that doesn't mean you want to do it all day long. The love can come from the act of solving a problem, not the act of admiring how elegant the results are." Many people are drawn to hacking as others are drawn to painting or playing music (and these groups often overlap).
  - run4yourlives 16y ago
    Many people do in fact love music or painting though specifically because of the admiration others give them for it. You're getting awfully close to a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I know I'm not going to evaluate whether the guy who paints for himself or the guy who paints for a spot on the museum wall has a higher degree of "pure" love for an action. It's irrelevant, really.
    - jamesbritt 16y ago
      "I know I'm not going to evaluate whether the guy who paints for himself or the guy who paints for a spot on the museum wall has a higher degree of "pure" love for an action." Right. There are no Scotsmen here, true or otherwise. My point is that some people do assorted things for the sake of doing them, for some intrinsic reason, not to solve some specific problem or address some external need. Few people seem surprised when this is what motivates people to paint or play music, but when people say they feel that way about writing software, eyebrows go up.
JoeAltmaier 16y ago
Programming is like making windup toys, or kinetic sculpture, or children. Once you're done, they come alive and entertain you! Unlike most art for instance, that just sits there.

by points 16y ago

mahmud 16y ago

Yep. Same here. I waited tables and coded on my break for fun. Didn't even think it could be a career, since I was self-taught.

BrandonM 16y ago

Learning to program is pretty darn fun. Learning brand new paradigms is pretty awesome. Building things in new, better, easier ways as you get knowledge and experience is wonderful. Learning how to program in a language with a similar amount of power to one that you're already intimately familiar with is pretty darn frustrating. It's hard to be intellectually curious when you're just learning new rules for the same game. It must be very odd programming in your spare time, not getting paid for something that is inherently laborious and valuable. There are too many other people, places, and things that I love first and foremost to list programming for free as one of them.

points 16y ago
> " There are too many other people, places, and things that I love first and foremost to list programming for free as one of them." This is something I think that is a great sign of someone who you should/shouldn't hire. The best interview question is "So what side projects are you working on out of hours?". If they shrug and answer 'none', politely show them the door, yet it's surprising just how many programmers don't seem to have/want side projects - I guess they're doing it for the money rather than the love of it. Definitely, life's about balance - spending time with family, living, eating, sleeping, etc but it seems like real hackers genuinely enjoy hacking, and want to play - even out of hours.
- BrandonM 16y ago
  ...and now you're a discriminatory hirer. Don't get me wrong. I love to build things. I love writing programs that improve my life in some way. I love that I can see a difficulty in someone else's life and tangibly improve it (for free if it's easy and you're a friend, or for a fair fee otherwise). Programming is fun. What is not fun is the mental masturbation of keeping up-to-date on all the latest-and-greatest languages and frameworks. What is not fun is building something with no tangible benefit. What is not fun is being insulted and dismissed by people who expect everyone to have the same interests and motivations as themselves. In your list of "balance", not once do you mention friends. I have a few groups of friends (totaling probably 30-40 people) in my city that I hang out with a couple times a month, some of them a couple times a week. I have more friends from my hometown that I visit once every month or two. I have other friends in other cities that I see a few times a year. If you subtracted all of that from my life, I would probably have an extra 50 hours per week to spend hacking. No deal. Just because I don't like spending my leisure time hacking doesn't mean that I don't genuinely enjoy the time that I do spend hacking. It doesn't mean that I don't have grandiose plans for things that I want to build (and make money from!). Your attitude about what constitutes a balanced life and a good hacker is very shortsighted and frankly offensive. I have several friends who are musicians. A couple of them make up one of my favorite bands, having a really cool and unique sound. In my time hanging out with them, we watch movies, grab something to eat, lounge around, party, and generally enjoy each other. We don't spend much time at all playing music just for fun. When they are "doing music", they are either writing a new song, improving an old song, recording, performing, practicing something new and useful, or rehearsing for an upcoming gig. All of their musical work leads to money in some form. Why do we expect hackers to work for free in their leisure time?
  - points 16y ago
    > "...and now you're a discriminatory hirer." Damn right. I hire based on who will be good at the job. > "What is not fun is the mental masturbation of keeping up-to-date on all the latest-and-greatest languages and frameworks. What is not fun is building something with no tangible benefit. What is not fun is being insulted and dismissed by people who expect everyone to have the same interests and motivations as themselves." Couldn't agree more. > " Your attitude about what constitutes a balanced life and a good hacker is very shortsighted and frankly offensive." Sorry, but you're kinda proving my point. The fact you don't want to spend more time on hacking rather than spending time with friends, means you'd make a bad employee for a startup. > "Why do we expect hackers to work for free in their leisure time?" I didn't say that at all. And FWIW, I play in a band as well. But I also spend an hour or so a day just playing for fun - because I enjoy it.
InclinedPlane 16y ago
You could say the same thing about music, architecture, wood-working, painting, cooking, writing, etc. In general, people who have a heart-felt passion for the art are likelier to be better at it than others. If all of the software in the world that was created out of passion and love for the craft suddenly disappeared overnight the world would be a much worse place.
- BrandonM 16y ago
  > If all of the software in the world that was created out of passion and love for the craft suddenly disappeared overnight the world would be a much worse place. That is a problem in my opinion. If someone is creating that much value, that person should be getting appropriately compensated.
- gjm11 16y ago
  > If all of the software in the world that was created out of passion and love for the craft suddenly disappeared overnight the world would be a much worse place. It would also be pretty bad if we suddenly lost all the software that was created primarily for money.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

run4yourlives 16y ago

Conversely, I have a tough time understanding anyone that spends inordinate amounts of time tinkering away on nothing, just because. You can "love" to program but that doesn't mean you want to do it all day long. The love can come from the act of solving a problem, not the act of admiring how elegant the code works. You need to disassociate the enjoyment from the purpose; they are not linked.

jamesbritt 16y ago
Suppose I rephrase this, with a twist: "You can 'love' to paint but that doesn't mean you want to do it all day long. The love can come from the act of solving a problem, not the act of admiring how elegant the results are." Many people are drawn to hacking as others are drawn to painting or playing music (and these groups often overlap).
- run4yourlives 16y ago
  Many people do in fact love music or painting though specifically because of the admiration others give them for it. You're getting awfully close to a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I know I'm not going to evaluate whether the guy who paints for himself or the guy who paints for a spot on the museum wall has a higher degree of "pure" love for an action. It's irrelevant, really.
  - jamesbritt 16y ago
    "I know I'm not going to evaluate whether the guy who paints for himself or the guy who paints for a spot on the museum wall has a higher degree of "pure" love for an action." Right. There are no Scotsmen here, true or otherwise. My point is that some people do assorted things for the sake of doing them, for some intrinsic reason, not to solve some specific problem or address some external need. Few people seem surprised when this is what motivates people to paint or play music, but when people say they feel that way about writing software, eyebrows go up.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago

Programming is like making windup toys, or kinetic sculpture, or children. Once you're done, they come alive and entertain you! Unlike most art for instance, that just sits there.