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BBC BASIC every time. I'm getting my kids ARM laptops and installing RISC OS Pico on there for them. 2 seconds straight into a CLI with native BASIC and assembl

BBC BASIC every time. I'm getting my kids ARM laptops and installing RISC OS Pico on there for them. 2 seconds straight into a CLI with native BASIC and assembler. And they already know the GOTO 10 loop and love it. Donald Knuth was wrong, IMO.

svat 8y ago
What was Donald Knuth wrong about?
- DanBC 8y ago
  I think it's a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful
  - svat 8y ago
    I thought it might be, but isn't that backwards then? (Or is bencollier49 arguing against GOTO?) It was Dijkstra who wrote "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" and it was Knuth in reply who wrote the best analysis (and defence in appropriate contexts) of the GOTO statement (in Structured Programming with Go To Statements: https://pic.plover.com/knuth-GOTO.pdf https://pic.plover.com/knuth-GOTO.pdf), and who still uses GOTO cheerfully and liberally in his programs. (https://twitter.com/svat/status/913114286951505920 https://twitter.com/svat/status/913114286951505920 , https://twitter.com/svat/status/885344334735745024 https://twitter.com/svat/status/885344334735745024 , https://github.com/shreevatsa/knuth-literate-programs/blob/master/programs/advent.pdf https://github.com/shreevatsa/knuth-literate-programs/blob/m... ) — so it seems really hard to understand that a comment that seems to be positive about GOTO is invoking as "wrong" the name of probably the most prominent programmer to still use them. Very puzzling. Of course it might just be a mistake, confusing Dijkstra for Knuth, but worth asking for clarification.
    - slrz 8y ago
      Also relevant is EWD's belief that exposure to BASIC inflicts permanent damage on a student's brains. edit: > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. from EWD498: How do we tell truths that might hurt? (http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EW...)
- transitorykris 8y ago
  That GOTO is harmful. Kids find joy in it!
- bencollier49 8y ago
  It was Dijkstra! My mistake!
  - svat 8y ago
    Ah ok, thought it might be, thanks for clarifying. :-) You may like to look into Knuth's reasons for liking goto.

svat 8y ago

What was Donald Knuth wrong about?

DanBC 8y ago
I think it's a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Considered_harmful
- svat 8y ago
  I thought it might be, but isn't that backwards then? (Or is bencollier49 arguing against GOTO?) It was Dijkstra who wrote "Go To Statement Considered Harmful" and it was Knuth in reply who wrote the best analysis (and defence in appropriate contexts) of the GOTO statement (in Structured Programming with Go To Statements: https://pic.plover.com/knuth-GOTO.pdf https://pic.plover.com/knuth-GOTO.pdf), and who still uses GOTO cheerfully and liberally in his programs. (https://twitter.com/svat/status/913114286951505920 https://twitter.com/svat/status/913114286951505920 , https://twitter.com/svat/status/885344334735745024 https://twitter.com/svat/status/885344334735745024 , https://github.com/shreevatsa/knuth-literate-programs/blob/master/programs/advent.pdf https://github.com/shreevatsa/knuth-literate-programs/blob/m... ) — so it seems really hard to understand that a comment that seems to be positive about GOTO is invoking as "wrong" the name of probably the most prominent programmer to still use them. Very puzzling. Of course it might just be a mistake, confusing Dijkstra for Knuth, but worth asking for clarification.
  - slrz 8y ago
    Also relevant is EWD's belief that exposure to BASIC inflicts permanent damage on a student's brains. edit: > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. from EWD498: How do we tell truths that might hurt? (http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EWD498.html http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD04xx/EW...)
transitorykris 8y ago
That GOTO is harmful. Kids find joy in it!
bencollier49 8y ago
It was Dijkstra! My mistake!
- svat 8y ago
  Ah ok, thought it might be, thanks for clarifying. :-) You may like to look into Knuth's reasons for liking goto.