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Weird that Hungarian is listed under rule #1, it should be under #0: Nouns preceded by numbers are always in the singular in Hungarian. Does anyone know for the

Weird that Hungarian is listed under rule #1, it should be under #0: Nouns preceded by numbers are always in the singular in Hungarian. Does anyone know for the other Finno-Ugric languages listed under #1 (Estonian, Finnish)?

hamstergene 8y ago
Don't know Hungarian, but pluralization is more than changing the noun after a number. For example, in full phrases like "Clear history after N days", "Found N files" some languages would change the part before the number (instead or together). Another example is text+button "N items in your cart [Buy them now]". The text may be unaffected by the number at all, but in the button "them" usually has to become "it" when N is 1. I don't think the article is accurate. Turkish definitely shouldn't be together with Chinese, it needs plural forms in some situations in which Chinese doesn't, I know this because our product was localized for both. Unicode CLDR is recommended reference.
jpatokal 8y ago
It's correct for Finnish: 1 tunti, 2 tuntia.
systoll 8y ago
Despite the title, the page describes a function, not the language grammar as a whole. Hungarian has plural forms. kutya = dog, kutyák = dogs. They follow the same pattern as english. The plurals are used way less often, as [roughly] the language doesn't pluralise when it's redundant. But that's outside the scope of PluralForm., and it's up to its users to avoid `PluralForm.get`ting phrases which already tell you the quantity. [That said, the Chinese example should probably be reworded. The stated reason applies to Hungarian, but it's not the whole reason they're in #0.]
- tom_mellior 8y ago
  > it's up to its users to avoid `PluralForm.get`ting phrases which already tell you the quantity. You mean one should not use `PluralForm.get` to generate snippets of the form "0 pages", "1 page", "2 pages"? Because if that's what you mean, you are directly contradicting all of the examples on the page.
  - systoll 8y ago
    All the concrete examples on the page are English — so they use plural forms when English does. That said, my wording did needlessly assume one of two approaches. The 'downloads' example shows both. PluralForm is often called at the whole-phrase level, for all languages, rather than as at an 'atomic' level, at the points where specific languages pluralise things. This contrast is shown in the 'downloads' example. In this use pattern, the correct approach is to write the same thing twice, if the 'plural form' of the matches the singular one. This pops up in English too. For instance, chrome://browser/locale/downloads/downloads.properties contains: shortHours=h;h shortMinutes=m;m shortSeconds=s;s And a multiplayer game might need ready=Are You Ready?;Are You Ready? As most languages have a singular 'you'.
    - tom_mellior 8y ago
      > All the concrete examples on the page are English — so they use plural forms when English does. ... which are all cases where Hungarian doesn't use the plural, which is why Hungarian shouldn't be in the same group as English. > In this use pattern, the correct approach is to write the same thing twice, if the 'plural form' of the matches the singular one. ... except if the plural form always matches the singular one, in which case the correct approach is to write the thing once. Category #0. Thanks for your efforts, but you have clarified nothing with regards to Hungarian.
      - tom_mellior 8y ago
        > you have clarified nothing with regards to Hungarian. Well, except the "are you ready" example. That is indeed one case where it might make sense to use different Hungarian forms.
      - systoll 8y ago
        > except if the plural form always matches the singular one Hungarian has plural forms which are distinct from the singular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase Otherwise, yeah, they'd be in group 0.

hamstergene 8y ago

Don't know Hungarian, but pluralization is more than changing the noun after a number. For example, in full phrases like "Clear history after N days", "Found N files" some languages would change the part before the number (instead or together). Another example is text+button "N items in your cart [Buy them now]". The text may be unaffected by the number at all, but in the button "them" usually has to become "it" when N is 1. I don't think the article is accurate. Turkish definitely shouldn't be together with Chinese, it needs plural forms in some situations in which Chinese doesn't, I know this because our product was localized for both. Unicode CLDR is recommended reference.

jpatokal 8y ago

It's correct for Finnish: 1 tunti, 2 tuntia.

systoll 8y ago

Despite the title, the page describes a function, not the language grammar as a whole. Hungarian has plural forms. kutya = dog, kutyák = dogs. They follow the same pattern as english. The plurals are used way less often, as [roughly] the language doesn't pluralise when it's redundant. But that's outside the scope of PluralForm., and it's up to its users to avoid `PluralForm.get`ting phrases which already tell you the quantity. [That said, the Chinese example should probably be reworded. The stated reason applies to Hungarian, but it's not the whole reason they're in #0.]

tom_mellior 8y ago
> it's up to its users to avoid `PluralForm.get`ting phrases which already tell you the quantity. You mean one should not use `PluralForm.get` to generate snippets of the form "0 pages", "1 page", "2 pages"? Because if that's what you mean, you are directly contradicting all of the examples on the page.
- systoll 8y ago
  All the concrete examples on the page are English — so they use plural forms when English does. That said, my wording did needlessly assume one of two approaches. The 'downloads' example shows both. PluralForm is often called at the whole-phrase level, for all languages, rather than as at an 'atomic' level, at the points where specific languages pluralise things. This contrast is shown in the 'downloads' example. In this use pattern, the correct approach is to write the same thing twice, if the 'plural form' of the matches the singular one. This pops up in English too. For instance, chrome://browser/locale/downloads/downloads.properties contains: shortHours=h;h shortMinutes=m;m shortSeconds=s;s And a multiplayer game might need ready=Are You Ready?;Are You Ready? As most languages have a singular 'you'.
  - tom_mellior 8y ago
    > All the concrete examples on the page are English — so they use plural forms when English does. ... which are all cases where Hungarian doesn't use the plural, which is why Hungarian shouldn't be in the same group as English. > In this use pattern, the correct approach is to write the same thing twice, if the 'plural form' of the matches the singular one. ... except if the plural form always matches the singular one, in which case the correct approach is to write the thing once. Category #0. Thanks for your efforts, but you have clarified nothing with regards to Hungarian.
    - tom_mellior 8y ago
      > you have clarified nothing with regards to Hungarian. Well, except the "are you ready" example. That is indeed one case where it might make sense to use different Hungarian forms.
    - systoll 8y ago
      > except if the plural form always matches the singular one Hungarian has plural forms which are distinct from the singular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_noun_phrase Otherwise, yeah, they'd be in group 0.