5 ms·

That's my sentiment exactly. I wish I'd had Python back in the day; especially the IPython REPL or Juypter notebooks. Both are excellent for hacking around, and

That's my sentiment exactly. I wish I'd had Python back in the day; especially the IPython REPL or Juypter notebooks. Both are excellent for hacking around, and immediate feedback.

AlexeyBrin 8y ago
Try to make a game or draw a circle in IPython, see how simple it is.
- gnud 8y ago
  import turtle t = turtle.Turtle() t.circle(100)
  - bartread 8y ago
    My recollection is hazy, as I didn't use it much, but this struck me immediately as somewhat similar to LOGO back in the 80s.
  - AlexeyBrin 8y ago
    OK, so I'm seven years old, I take your code and write it in my Jupyter notebook. Press run and I get half a page of errors with something about TclError: no display name and no $DISPLAY environment variable. I also have questions: What is import ? Why do you need to write turtle 3 times ? Why do I have to write t.circle ? This is boring, I better play Candy Crush on my phone. Compare your code with the QBasic equivalent: screen 13 circle (50, 50), 100 Another nice thing about QBasic is that the code is checked after each line and in case of error it shows you a clear error message.
    - justinator 8y ago
      OK so I'm 7 years old. My parents are my parents, so I've got constraints you would give a child who sometimes wets the bed and can't always put all their own clothes on. I've got a bunch of paper and crayons. See you in a couple of hours, cause I'm just gonna draw. (or is childhood that different, now?)
      - meheleventyone 8y ago
        Urrm, seven is quite old in respect to doing something like programming. I was writing (quite rubbish) BASIC on the ZX Spectrum at that age in the late 80's. No easy error messages and a single book to help. My own four year old no longer wets the bed and can easily dress herself when she can be convinced too.
        DanBC 8y ago
        1 in 10 children still wet the bad at age 7.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > 1 in 10 children still wet the bad at age 7. Which mean 9 in 10 don't. Not that, in any case, wetting the bed is actually in any way anything but a distraction in this discussion.
      - oldcynic 8y ago
        At under 7 years old my daughter was doing surprisingly fancy things in MS paint. Including finding features we didn't even know Paint had. "Daaaaaaad, crayons are boring, can I use the computer?" (I think there's a few minor differences) :)
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        It was (for some people) that different 20 years ago, at least from what I remember from my own childhood.
        justinator 8y ago
        I was 7, 30 years ago. We wouldn't have a computer in the house for another 10 years. Owning a personal computer in the 80's wasn't given, even in the middle class white Connecticut suburban neighborhood I grew up in. I was introduced to Logo at school maybe not at seven, but maybe 11? Looking back, I would have given anything to just have more play time where I made up the rules, and those rules weren't called "rules" (because that's what playing is, right?) As an adult, I find that I'm not playing by making computer programs, but by going into the woods, and pretending I'm basically a kid and exploring and getting a bit caught up in my own imagination. It's... it's lovely.
    - gnud 8y ago
      What does 'screen 13' mean? Why must I have parenthesis around 50, 50? Also, I doubt many 7 year olds have a Jupyter notebook they refer to as "mine".
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >What does 'screen 13' mean? Why must I have parenthesis around 50, 50? See? Way fewer questions than with Python or JS. >Also, I doubt many 7 year olds have a Jupyter notebook they refer to as "mine". That only reinforces what the parent said.
      - itomato 8y ago
        "Look it up in your book, 101 Things To Do With Your Personal Computer"
      - BeetleB 8y ago
        I believe with BASICA or GW-BASIC one wouldn't even need SCREEN 13 I know I started with the ZX Spectrum and I didn't need it. As for the parenthesis, I was content with being told that's just how you make a circle
      - badsectoracula 8y ago
        > Why must I have parenthesis around 50, 50? Hey, i remember that! I was actually 7 years old when i first encountered the `CIRCLE (xcenter, ycenter), radius` statement (in GWBasic, but it is the same in QBasic) and... it actually made sense to have the coordinates separate. Although probably a large reason it "made sense" was that i wasn't familiar with any other notation. I quickly jumped to Turbo Pascal and i remember the `Circle` procedure in Turbo Pascal (BGI) looking weird with it being `Circle(xcenter, ycenter, radius);` :-P. I do not really remember much from that time (it has been almost three decades since then :-P), but this is something i sometimes think back to because of how each statement had a "customized" syntax that i found making sense (e.g. GW/QBasic has `LINE (x1,y1)-(x2,y2)` and this also made sense because i'm drawing a line between two points and again Turbo Pascal's `Line(x1, y1, x2, y2);` felt weird initially) and this sort of statement-specific syntax being something you do not really see in languages nowadays (or even at the time, AFAIK most other BASICs used `LINE x1,y1,x2,y2` - when they offered graphics functionality at all).
    - qznc 8y ago
      With DrRacket it is #lang slideshow (circle 10) Explanation: http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html
      - AlexeyBrin 8y ago
        I really like Racket, but I still think Basic is simpler to click for a kid.
  - digi_owl 8y ago
    > import turtle That to me is the ongoing problem with picking up a programming language these days, figuring out all the available libraries and which of them i need to load to get closer to my goal.
- guitarbill 8y ago
  I guess text adventures aren't as fashionable or exciting any more :'(

That's my sentiment exactly. I wish I'd had Python back in the day; especially the IPython REPL or Juypter notebooks. Both are excellent for hacking around, and immediate feedback.

AlexeyBrin 8y ago

Try to make a game or draw a circle in IPython, see how simple it is.

gnud 8y ago
import turtle t = turtle.Turtle() t.circle(100)
- bartread 8y ago
  My recollection is hazy, as I didn't use it much, but this struck me immediately as somewhat similar to LOGO back in the 80s.
- AlexeyBrin 8y ago
  OK, so I'm seven years old, I take your code and write it in my Jupyter notebook. Press run and I get half a page of errors with something about TclError: no display name and no $DISPLAY environment variable. I also have questions: What is import ? Why do you need to write turtle 3 times ? Why do I have to write t.circle ? This is boring, I better play Candy Crush on my phone. Compare your code with the QBasic equivalent: screen 13 circle (50, 50), 100 Another nice thing about QBasic is that the code is checked after each line and in case of error it shows you a clear error message.
  - justinator 8y ago
    OK so I'm 7 years old. My parents are my parents, so I've got constraints you would give a child who sometimes wets the bed and can't always put all their own clothes on. I've got a bunch of paper and crayons. See you in a couple of hours, cause I'm just gonna draw. (or is childhood that different, now?)
    - meheleventyone 8y ago
      Urrm, seven is quite old in respect to doing something like programming. I was writing (quite rubbish) BASIC on the ZX Spectrum at that age in the late 80's. No easy error messages and a single book to help. My own four year old no longer wets the bed and can easily dress herself when she can be convinced too.
      - DanBC 8y ago
        1 in 10 children still wet the bad at age 7.
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        > 1 in 10 children still wet the bad at age 7. Which mean 9 in 10 don't. Not that, in any case, wetting the bed is actually in any way anything but a distraction in this discussion.
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      At under 7 years old my daughter was doing surprisingly fancy things in MS paint. Including finding features we didn't even know Paint had. "Daaaaaaad, crayons are boring, can I use the computer?" (I think there's a few minor differences) :)
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      It was (for some people) that different 20 years ago, at least from what I remember from my own childhood.
      - justinator 8y ago
        I was 7, 30 years ago. We wouldn't have a computer in the house for another 10 years. Owning a personal computer in the 80's wasn't given, even in the middle class white Connecticut suburban neighborhood I grew up in. I was introduced to Logo at school maybe not at seven, but maybe 11? Looking back, I would have given anything to just have more play time where I made up the rules, and those rules weren't called "rules" (because that's what playing is, right?) As an adult, I find that I'm not playing by making computer programs, but by going into the woods, and pretending I'm basically a kid and exploring and getting a bit caught up in my own imagination. It's... it's lovely.
  - gnud 8y ago
    What does 'screen 13' mean? Why must I have parenthesis around 50, 50? Also, I doubt many 7 year olds have a Jupyter notebook they refer to as "mine".
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >What does 'screen 13' mean? Why must I have parenthesis around 50, 50? See? Way fewer questions than with Python or JS. >Also, I doubt many 7 year olds have a Jupyter notebook they refer to as "mine". That only reinforces what the parent said.
    - itomato 8y ago
      "Look it up in your book, 101 Things To Do With Your Personal Computer"
    - BeetleB 8y ago
      I believe with BASICA or GW-BASIC one wouldn't even need SCREEN 13 I know I started with the ZX Spectrum and I didn't need it. As for the parenthesis, I was content with being told that's just how you make a circle
    - badsectoracula 8y ago
      > Why must I have parenthesis around 50, 50? Hey, i remember that! I was actually 7 years old when i first encountered the `CIRCLE (xcenter, ycenter), radius` statement (in GWBasic, but it is the same in QBasic) and... it actually made sense to have the coordinates separate. Although probably a large reason it "made sense" was that i wasn't familiar with any other notation. I quickly jumped to Turbo Pascal and i remember the `Circle` procedure in Turbo Pascal (BGI) looking weird with it being `Circle(xcenter, ycenter, radius);` :-P. I do not really remember much from that time (it has been almost three decades since then :-P), but this is something i sometimes think back to because of how each statement had a "customized" syntax that i found making sense (e.g. GW/QBasic has `LINE (x1,y1)-(x2,y2)` and this also made sense because i'm drawing a line between two points and again Turbo Pascal's `Line(x1, y1, x2, y2);` felt weird initially) and this sort of statement-specific syntax being something you do not really see in languages nowadays (or even at the time, AFAIK most other BASICs used `LINE x1,y1,x2,y2` - when they offered graphics functionality at all).
  - qznc 8y ago
    With DrRacket it is #lang slideshow (circle 10) Explanation: http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html http://docs.racket-lang.org/quick/index.html
    - AlexeyBrin 8y ago
      I really like Racket, but I still think Basic is simpler to click for a kid.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  > import turtle That to me is the ongoing problem with picking up a programming language these days, figuring out all the available libraries and which of them i need to load to get closer to my goal.
guitarbill 8y ago
I guess text adventures aren't as fashionable or exciting any more :'(