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Thank you for the feedback. Interesting info. I definitely think my question was not as precise as I was looking for. I definitely get the "right leaning" vs

Thank you for the feedback. Interesting info. I definitely think my question was not as precise as I was looking for. I definitely get the "right leaning" vs "left leaning" dichotomy. I'm wondering more about the human nature element. What's so different about people in EU vs US that one would find more value in protecting citizens and the other would find more value in protecting corporations?

abhiminator 8y ago
Generally speaking, Americans tend to prioritize individual liberty, while Europeans tend to value the role of the state to ensure no one in society is in need, and thus individual liberty by extension extends over to the property the individual owns, like businesses and corporations, for example. Europeans on the other hand are more 'collectivist' RELATIVE to the United States, which I assert might be due to the bad hangover from earlier empires; U.S. has been a pretty stable Democratic Republic for close to 250 years now.
- avmich 8y ago
  Do the individual liberties in US exist as approximately "freedom from government" or also "freedom from fellow citizens"? Same for EU - does EU "collectivism" work to ensure citizens are well in all aspects, freedom included?
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    I find it's more about fundamental individual freedoms in the US vs statistical best outcomes in the EU. If removing the right to self defence makes Europeans statistically 10% safer then it's a good move and damn the people who are left defenceless. Likewise in the US it's thought to be better to have the right to defend yourself even if that makes society overall a bit more dangerous.
- perpetualcrayon 8y ago
  Maybe it's the wrong thing to get from this, but I'm imagining that in this scenario, in the US, one man's property is in most cases more valuable than another man's existence?
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    This is literally expressed in some state laws, search "Castle Doctrine". Stand your ground laws are also somewhat related.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      And self-defense law in Germany has is much more robust than all those castle doctrine laws. Here, proportionality of response explicitly doesn‘t come into the balancing test, only erforderlich (necessary), geeignet (useful) and least forceful method that leads to guaranteed success.
      - maxerickson 8y ago
        What do you mean by robust? Most US laws related to Castle doctrine pretty much allow the use of maximum force for forced entry. No evaluation of whether lethal force was necessary, no evaluation of whether less force would have sufficed.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    The US has negative rights rather than positive ones. Society can’t just come after your property or your existence. Society is also not required to provide you with property or existence.
closeparen 8y ago
Americans work for corporations, buy products from corporations, and hope to retire on the growth of the corporations they own in their investment accounts. Most Americans are also their own landlords. As such, policies detrimental to business and capital may be worthwhile but are never free. It’s not like business activity is some optional thing that we can afford to do without if it’s not 100% perfect.
sheepmullet 8y ago
> What's so different about people in EU vs US that one would find more value in protecting citizens and the other would find more value in protecting corporations? That is a misleading and one dimensional way to highlight the difference between the two groups. American capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty. Would it be fair to ask why does the US care about the poor and needy while the EU only cares about itself?

abhiminator 8y ago

Generally speaking, Americans tend to prioritize individual liberty, while Europeans tend to value the role of the state to ensure no one in society is in need, and thus individual liberty by extension extends over to the property the individual owns, like businesses and corporations, for example. Europeans on the other hand are more 'collectivist' RELATIVE to the United States, which I assert might be due to the bad hangover from earlier empires; U.S. has been a pretty stable Democratic Republic for close to 250 years now.

avmich 8y ago
Do the individual liberties in US exist as approximately "freedom from government" or also "freedom from fellow citizens"? Same for EU - does EU "collectivism" work to ensure citizens are well in all aspects, freedom included?
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  I find it's more about fundamental individual freedoms in the US vs statistical best outcomes in the EU. If removing the right to self defence makes Europeans statistically 10% safer then it's a good move and damn the people who are left defenceless. Likewise in the US it's thought to be better to have the right to defend yourself even if that makes society overall a bit more dangerous.
perpetualcrayon 8y ago
Maybe it's the wrong thing to get from this, but I'm imagining that in this scenario, in the US, one man's property is in most cases more valuable than another man's existence?
- maxerickson 8y ago
  This is literally expressed in some state laws, search "Castle Doctrine". Stand your ground laws are also somewhat related.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    And self-defense law in Germany has is much more robust than all those castle doctrine laws. Here, proportionality of response explicitly doesn‘t come into the balancing test, only erforderlich (necessary), geeignet (useful) and least forceful method that leads to guaranteed success.
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      What do you mean by robust? Most US laws related to Castle doctrine pretty much allow the use of maximum force for forced entry. No evaluation of whether lethal force was necessary, no evaluation of whether less force would have sufficed.
- closeparen 8y ago
  The US has negative rights rather than positive ones. Society can’t just come after your property or your existence. Society is also not required to provide you with property or existence.

closeparen 8y ago

Americans work for corporations, buy products from corporations, and hope to retire on the growth of the corporations they own in their investment accounts. Most Americans are also their own landlords. As such, policies detrimental to business and capital may be worthwhile but are never free. It’s not like business activity is some optional thing that we can afford to do without if it’s not 100% perfect.

sheepmullet 8y ago

> What's so different about people in EU vs US that one would find more value in protecting citizens and the other would find more value in protecting corporations? That is a misleading and one dimensional way to highlight the difference between the two groups. American capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty. Would it be fair to ask why does the US care about the poor and needy while the EU only cares about itself?