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> We couldn’t afford a lawyer, and the amount of time for me (the only programmer) to go through and read all the regulations and make all the requisite changes

> We couldn’t afford a lawyer, and the amount of time for me (the only programmer) to go through and read all the regulations and make all the requisite changes in the product I would estimate might take on the order of a month or two, which if timed poorly would’ve killed our company. I say again: at an early stage startup with one programmer, you cannot have that one programmer spending two months on compliance. "We couldn't afford a lawyer and the amount of time for me (the only chef) to go through and read all the regulations and make all the requisite changes in the kitchen I would estimate might take on the order of a month or two, which if timed poorly would’ve killed our restaurant. I say again: at an early stage restaurant with one chef, you cannot have that one chef spending two months on compliance." Would you eat in a place like that?

fleitz 8y ago
Definitely. I’ve eaten at restaurants with out power floating on the river serving fresh crocs, ate right beside the meal. Best donut I ever ate was done up in a metal bowl sitting on a cinder block with a hole chipped into it for the tiger torch. It’s not rocket science to make a meal without killing people.
blhack 8y ago
Yes, in fact I think I have eaten at literally hundreds of places like that all over the world. Also: your equivalency is ridiculous. I have had a "food manager's card", which means that I am certified to oversee an entire restaurant of chefs and cooks who all presumably have their own "food handler's card". The certification took about an hour. Food handler's cards take even less time, and you'll be shocked to know that many people working in restaurants don't actually have them.
tomatotomato37 8y ago
Yes. Shove perishables in a refrigerator/freezer, cook any meat thoughly, slap an allergy poster somewhere, and then allocate 30 minutes a night to cleaning and you're 95% of the way there In contrast there's so much FUD surrounding this bill that you'll end up having to hire a lawyer to figure out how to clear up your EULA without accidentally leaving a loophole for the predatory lawyers on the American side that are partly the reason those EULAs are such a impenetrable wall in the first place
axlprose 8y ago
>Would you eat in a place like that? a vast majority of the food places in my home country were like that when I was growing up, and such places likely still make up a sizable portion of the food businesses down there now. I can't help but be a bit offended by this attitude, because it seems to not only be implying that these businesses are likely to be operating in bad faith, but that the world would legitimately be better off without them as well. It's great that you probably grew up and live in a situation where that might've been feasible, but I can't in good conscience defend those views having lived in places where such strictness is out of reach for most entrepreneurs. The world isn't entirely comprised of Europe and North America.
- ponyfleisch 8y ago
  > because it seems to not only be implying that these businesses are likely to be operating in bad faith I think there is a subtle difference between negligence and bad faith. > but that the world would legitimately be better off without them as well Well, that's precsiely what laws forbidding businesses like that say. "We'd rather not have them if they can't stick to those rules." Are you making the argument that the west is generally over-regulating food safety and public health? If so, on what basis? Looks to me like a variant of the old "when i was young we didn't have [seatbelts|gun regulation|hard hats on construction sites] and i turned out just fine!"
  - axlprose 8y ago
    >"We'd rather not have them if they can't stick to those rules." Right, but the alternative in certain situations is having no businesses at all, as was the case in my home country. >Are you making the argument that the west is generally over-regulating food safety and public health? If so, on what basis? Looks to me like a variant of the old "when i was young we didn't have [seatbelts|gun regulation|hard hats on construction sites] and i turned out just fine!" No, and again, it's offensive that this is legitimately the first thing that comes to mind when somebody from a developing nation says that it's local population has reasons for doing things the way it does. Nowhere was I arguing that public safety is a bad thing, and don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. I was merely stating the fact that businesses down there almost unanimously don't have the resources to be hiring lawyers, or whatever other services that they would need in order to guarantee compliance with overly strict regulations like you see in the west. If such regulations were in place, and they were strictly enforced somehow, what would happen is that nearly all entrepreneurship would disappear altogether, except possibly for the wealthy (which are often the most corrupt down there), or outside investors with potentially dubious motives for dealing with the local population. It would literally price-out the very people you'd be trying to help with your regulations. I never said that situation was better than the west, or that things were somehow better "back then" (I much prefer living in the US today), I was saying it was better than nothing, and that these entitled western sentiments can't feasibly be applied everywhere to positive effect. Has it come to the point now that small villages will be needing to apologize to westerners for liking the convenience of having some semblance of commerce in their neighborhoods, due to all the benefits that brings, like not having to worry about cooking dinner in equally poor conditions every night at home? It's not an attack on the west, it's annoyance with the west's over-the-top moralizing of the choices different people make under constrained circumstances that westerners seem to forget exist.

fleitz 8y ago

Definitely. I’ve eaten at restaurants with out power floating on the river serving fresh crocs, ate right beside the meal. Best donut I ever ate was done up in a metal bowl sitting on a cinder block with a hole chipped into it for the tiger torch. It’s not rocket science to make a meal without killing people.

blhack 8y ago

Yes, in fact I think I have eaten at literally hundreds of places like that all over the world. Also: your equivalency is ridiculous. I have had a "food manager's card", which means that I am certified to oversee an entire restaurant of chefs and cooks who all presumably have their own "food handler's card". The certification took about an hour. Food handler's cards take even less time, and you'll be shocked to know that many people working in restaurants don't actually have them.

tomatotomato37 8y ago

Yes. Shove perishables in a refrigerator/freezer, cook any meat thoughly, slap an allergy poster somewhere, and then allocate 30 minutes a night to cleaning and you're 95% of the way there In contrast there's so much FUD surrounding this bill that you'll end up having to hire a lawyer to figure out how to clear up your EULA without accidentally leaving a loophole for the predatory lawyers on the American side that are partly the reason those EULAs are such a impenetrable wall in the first place

axlprose 8y ago

>Would you eat in a place like that? a vast majority of the food places in my home country were like that when I was growing up, and such places likely still make up a sizable portion of the food businesses down there now. I can't help but be a bit offended by this attitude, because it seems to not only be implying that these businesses are likely to be operating in bad faith, but that the world would legitimately be better off without them as well. It's great that you probably grew up and live in a situation where that might've been feasible, but I can't in good conscience defend those views having lived in places where such strictness is out of reach for most entrepreneurs. The world isn't entirely comprised of Europe and North America.

ponyfleisch 8y ago
> because it seems to not only be implying that these businesses are likely to be operating in bad faith I think there is a subtle difference between negligence and bad faith. > but that the world would legitimately be better off without them as well Well, that's precsiely what laws forbidding businesses like that say. "We'd rather not have them if they can't stick to those rules." Are you making the argument that the west is generally over-regulating food safety and public health? If so, on what basis? Looks to me like a variant of the old "when i was young we didn't have [seatbelts|gun regulation|hard hats on construction sites] and i turned out just fine!"
- axlprose 8y ago
  >"We'd rather not have them if they can't stick to those rules." Right, but the alternative in certain situations is having no businesses at all, as was the case in my home country. >Are you making the argument that the west is generally over-regulating food safety and public health? If so, on what basis? Looks to me like a variant of the old "when i was young we didn't have [seatbelts|gun regulation|hard hats on construction sites] and i turned out just fine!" No, and again, it's offensive that this is legitimately the first thing that comes to mind when somebody from a developing nation says that it's local population has reasons for doing things the way it does. Nowhere was I arguing that public safety is a bad thing, and don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. I was merely stating the fact that businesses down there almost unanimously don't have the resources to be hiring lawyers, or whatever other services that they would need in order to guarantee compliance with overly strict regulations like you see in the west. If such regulations were in place, and they were strictly enforced somehow, what would happen is that nearly all entrepreneurship would disappear altogether, except possibly for the wealthy (which are often the most corrupt down there), or outside investors with potentially dubious motives for dealing with the local population. It would literally price-out the very people you'd be trying to help with your regulations. I never said that situation was better than the west, or that things were somehow better "back then" (I much prefer living in the US today), I was saying it was better than nothing, and that these entitled western sentiments can't feasibly be applied everywhere to positive effect. Has it come to the point now that small villages will be needing to apologize to westerners for liking the convenience of having some semblance of commerce in their neighborhoods, due to all the benefits that brings, like not having to worry about cooking dinner in equally poor conditions every night at home? It's not an attack on the west, it's annoyance with the west's over-the-top moralizing of the choices different people make under constrained circumstances that westerners seem to forget exist.