6 ms·

>> EU citizens have turned into pests overnight. Are they really pests for demanding privacy? In today's environment?

ythn 8y ago
To me it seems like a case of wanting to have the cake and eat it too. "I want to use your free service without participating in your monetization model. K thanks" -- EU citizens
- mephitix 8y ago
  'Free' is a powerful word - there's a lot of incentive for companies to tout 'free' and for users to feel like they're getting a good deal - when in reality there's a whole lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes. My take is that consumers need to be aware of what 'free' really means for each service that advertises it. What are the real implications - not just something hidden in doublespeak in a ToS or privacy policy. Everything spelled out in the GDPR is a great thing for users and should have been there from the very beginning - being able to erase all their data, see all their data, export their data, and get notified when data is accessed.
  - ythn 8y ago
    > Everything spelled out in the GDPR is a great thing for users and should have been there from the very beginning - being able to erase all their data, see all their data, export their data, and get notified when data is accessed. I hate this "empowering users" philosophy of the EU. It's reminiscent of "right to be forgotten" type regulation where EU believes users should be in control of "their" data, when it reality it isn't "theirs" to begin with. Once data is "public" you can't ever "erase" it because it's not "yours". I'm sorry, if you shoplift in my store (online or no), I'm keeping track of you no matter how much you demand that I erase "your" information.
    - llukas 8y ago
      So your private database about customers is somehow public? Where can I get it?
    - WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
      Because it is their data, consider if there was a database of your fingerprints and DNA available online to everyone, would that really be okay to you?
- orf 8y ago
  More like: "I want to use your free service and to participate in your monetization model only after you explicitly tell me how you are going to do with my data. If you can't tell me this, and get me to accept the trade off, why should I trust you?" -- EU citizens"
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    I doubt anyone here cares if you don't trust them and choose not to use their service. But that's not enough for you :) So it's more like "if you can't do this according to the whims of my government regulators, I'll still be using your service, AND prepare for a large fine."
    - orf 8y ago
      Is it really too much to ask to clearly spell out how you use my data, clearly get my consent to use it, and provide an email address where I can request it be deleted? Really? You're saying that is too difficult?
      - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        Whether it's too much to ask is not the issue, nor whether doing what you list is full compliance (doubtful). No one is asking. Rather, the right question is whether the entity demanding (the EU government) has the right to do so on the basis that their jurisdiction extends to anywhere that a citizen of theirs can reach via the Internet. I argue no. You probably disagree, which is fine, but this ultimately comes down to enforcement. And for now at least, I win on that front.
      - matte_black 8y ago
        It’s only the last part we have a problem with. We’re not going to track down every trace of your data and delete it. We probably also won’t let you do an export. I think we’re perfectly fine with telling you we use your data for ML training, internal analytics or showing you relevant ads. That is standard stuff you consent to in a TOS.
matte_black 8y ago
You are a pest when you use a service and give nothing back in return, stealing resources that are better allocated to users that actually contribute to revenue.
- mephitix 8y ago
  I don't understand... isn't that something that the company decides? How are users stealing something? For the longest time companies have been able to market something as 'free' when they have been the ones who have been trying to hide the fact that users' data was being sold, etc. So I would argue that if someone is 'stealing', it is actually the companies themselves.
  - mrep 8y ago
    No, GDPR effectively says that you have to get the users to opt in to your targeted ads (aka the business model) but you also cannot deny them the content if you opt out. In effect, the EU wants to get all the content for free while not paying the costs that give them such great content which is targeted advertising. The "stealing" is because they are trying to get companies to give their content out for free without paying the cost which requires targeted advertising (and no, generic ads pay shit which is why tons of companies are blocking all the EU because they now aren't worth the server costs).
- Barrin92 8y ago
  I know this sounds extreme but you could always go with the good old approach of charging users money for provided goods and services, instead of monetizing their data or throwing ads at them.
  - product50 8y ago
    Well European users (like other users) don't want to pay as well. And why create a specific feature for European users when globally people are just fine clicking on ads.
    - 8y ago

ythn 8y ago

To me it seems like a case of wanting to have the cake and eat it too. "I want to use your free service without participating in your monetization model. K thanks" -- EU citizens

mephitix 8y ago
'Free' is a powerful word - there's a lot of incentive for companies to tout 'free' and for users to feel like they're getting a good deal - when in reality there's a whole lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes. My take is that consumers need to be aware of what 'free' really means for each service that advertises it. What are the real implications - not just something hidden in doublespeak in a ToS or privacy policy. Everything spelled out in the GDPR is a great thing for users and should have been there from the very beginning - being able to erase all their data, see all their data, export their data, and get notified when data is accessed.
- ythn 8y ago
  > Everything spelled out in the GDPR is a great thing for users and should have been there from the very beginning - being able to erase all their data, see all their data, export their data, and get notified when data is accessed. I hate this "empowering users" philosophy of the EU. It's reminiscent of "right to be forgotten" type regulation where EU believes users should be in control of "their" data, when it reality it isn't "theirs" to begin with. Once data is "public" you can't ever "erase" it because it's not "yours". I'm sorry, if you shoplift in my store (online or no), I'm keeping track of you no matter how much you demand that I erase "your" information.
  - llukas 8y ago
    So your private database about customers is somehow public? Where can I get it?
  - WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
    Because it is their data, consider if there was a database of your fingerprints and DNA available online to everyone, would that really be okay to you?
orf 8y ago
More like: "I want to use your free service and to participate in your monetization model only after you explicitly tell me how you are going to do with my data. If you can't tell me this, and get me to accept the trade off, why should I trust you?" -- EU citizens"
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  I doubt anyone here cares if you don't trust them and choose not to use their service. But that's not enough for you :) So it's more like "if you can't do this according to the whims of my government regulators, I'll still be using your service, AND prepare for a large fine."
  - orf 8y ago
    Is it really too much to ask to clearly spell out how you use my data, clearly get my consent to use it, and provide an email address where I can request it be deleted? Really? You're saying that is too difficult?
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      Whether it's too much to ask is not the issue, nor whether doing what you list is full compliance (doubtful). No one is asking. Rather, the right question is whether the entity demanding (the EU government) has the right to do so on the basis that their jurisdiction extends to anywhere that a citizen of theirs can reach via the Internet. I argue no. You probably disagree, which is fine, but this ultimately comes down to enforcement. And for now at least, I win on that front.
    - matte_black 8y ago
      It’s only the last part we have a problem with. We’re not going to track down every trace of your data and delete it. We probably also won’t let you do an export. I think we’re perfectly fine with telling you we use your data for ML training, internal analytics or showing you relevant ads. That is standard stuff you consent to in a TOS.

matte_black 8y ago

You are a pest when you use a service and give nothing back in return, stealing resources that are better allocated to users that actually contribute to revenue.

mephitix 8y ago
I don't understand... isn't that something that the company decides? How are users stealing something? For the longest time companies have been able to market something as 'free' when they have been the ones who have been trying to hide the fact that users' data was being sold, etc. So I would argue that if someone is 'stealing', it is actually the companies themselves.
- mrep 8y ago
  No, GDPR effectively says that you have to get the users to opt in to your targeted ads (aka the business model) but you also cannot deny them the content if you opt out. In effect, the EU wants to get all the content for free while not paying the costs that give them such great content which is targeted advertising. The "stealing" is because they are trying to get companies to give their content out for free without paying the cost which requires targeted advertising (and no, generic ads pay shit which is why tons of companies are blocking all the EU because they now aren't worth the server costs).
Barrin92 8y ago
I know this sounds extreme but you could always go with the good old approach of charging users money for provided goods and services, instead of monetizing their data or throwing ads at them.
- product50 8y ago
  Well European users (like other users) don't want to pay as well. And why create a specific feature for European users when globally people are just fine clicking on ads.
  - 8y ago