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OK, so let's say that hypothetically I run a small business in the US. I just sell access to software (that lives on my server in the US) instead of burgers. An

OK, so let's say that hypothetically I run a small business in the US. I just sell access to software (that lives on my server in the US) instead of burgers. An EU visitor comes to my server in my country and buys something. Why should I care about their laws any more than the burger shop owner should?

mrtksn 8y ago
Is your argument that someone else in the business should care or is your argument that EU visitors should not have rights to their data because it is inconvenient to you? Depending on your arrangement, if you are a reseller for example, you probably are not responsible for what that software does with your customer's data. Also, burger shops that do business in EU(usually chains, McDonald's and Burger King) do care about the EU food regulations, why shouldn't they and why shouldn't you? You are aware that McDonald's isn't steamrolling in the EU, right? They do follow the EU food regulations. And no, you don't have to be a big company to sell burgers in the EU, we have plenty of local independent burger shops all over the continent.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  Burger shops IN the EU are a completely different thing. My primary argument is that the GDPR's attempt to regulate companies in other jurisdictions because EU citizens go INTO those jurisdictions and do business is a dangerous precedent. If there was an enforcement mechanism for all such laws, it implies that any business or individual anywhere in the world with a website should therefore have to comply with any laws from any jurisdiction that are similarly constructed. If my website says things about Islam that Saudi Arabia passes a law against, I should be fined. If my website disrespects the king of Thailand, I should be extradited for imprisonment. If I encourage NK citizens to revolt against their oppressive regime, I should end up in a labor camp. After all, those governments have a right to say that if I want to "do business in their jurisdiction", I must respect their laws, right? (To be clear, I'm not talking about enforcement of these kinds of laws, because all of those countries might do the above if given the chance. I'm talking about what I SHOULD do as a matter of morality or ethics or civic duty or whatever, or what my government should cooperate with those governments on, because it's just.) But the problem is that they're describing "doing business in their jurisdiction" as a citizen from their country (maybe even one who is currently visiting my country) going online and sending my server requests, data, and money. And apparently explicitly telling those citizens to please NOT do that, or blocking them, is not sufficient. The only way to make the majority of the EU users on HN happy is to comply. Why would that same logic not apply to all other kinds of laws?
  - mrtksn 8y ago
    So do you argue that businesses that do business over the internet should be subject to the laws where the business is legally based? So, do you say that EU businesses should be able to operate in the USA but according to the EU laws and without any consideration to the US laws? Or is your arguments something else, something selfish like all online businesses should operate according to the US laws or something like online businesses should not be bound by any laws whatsoever? Or something else?
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      So, do you say that EU businesses should be able to operate in the USA but according to the EU laws and without any consideration to the US laws? If by "operate in the US" you mean that they are based in the EU and allow US residents to visit their website and purchase from them, then yes, absolutely. Why would it be any other way? I just don't see how the alternative works at all. Why couldn't some city in France pass a law that if a citizen of their city buys something from your site based in Hong Kong, you owe that city a tax of $50k. That's obviously ridiculous and not enforceable, but why is it not based on the same underlying legal theory that a business is bound by the laws of jurisdiction where visitors or customers to their site originate from?
      - mrtksn 8y ago
        Well, "HQ based law" not the case and it's a much larger discussion that doesn't have anything to do with the GDPR or EU. The USA too is going after foreign companies doing business with Iran or Cuba. The USA is not happy with cryptocurrency ICO's and it's enforcing it. The USA is forcing the world to respect DMCA. The taxes are also an issue, even within the USA doe to different VAT in different states. These are topics that have been in discussion since the beginning of the internet and the dust is just settling and the solution is not simple as "You obey to the laws according to the country you're based in". It's a huge huge topic. Edit: And FYI, many countries do enforce a tax on foreign purchases. For example, Turkey will be forcing American internet giants to charge VAT to its Turkish clients and transfer that VAT to the Turkish government. Countries want to collect taxes, you can't really get away with "I am an American company so I operate tax-free" argument. Politicians will work out an arrangement like "I will make your tax law enforceable on my companies if you let me use your military base and purchase weapons".

mrtksn 8y ago

Is your argument that someone else in the business should care or is your argument that EU visitors should not have rights to their data because it is inconvenient to you? Depending on your arrangement, if you are a reseller for example, you probably are not responsible for what that software does with your customer's data. Also, burger shops that do business in EU(usually chains, McDonald's and Burger King) do care about the EU food regulations, why shouldn't they and why shouldn't you? You are aware that McDonald's isn't steamrolling in the EU, right? They do follow the EU food regulations. And no, you don't have to be a big company to sell burgers in the EU, we have plenty of local independent burger shops all over the continent.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
Burger shops IN the EU are a completely different thing. My primary argument is that the GDPR's attempt to regulate companies in other jurisdictions because EU citizens go INTO those jurisdictions and do business is a dangerous precedent. If there was an enforcement mechanism for all such laws, it implies that any business or individual anywhere in the world with a website should therefore have to comply with any laws from any jurisdiction that are similarly constructed. If my website says things about Islam that Saudi Arabia passes a law against, I should be fined. If my website disrespects the king of Thailand, I should be extradited for imprisonment. If I encourage NK citizens to revolt against their oppressive regime, I should end up in a labor camp. After all, those governments have a right to say that if I want to "do business in their jurisdiction", I must respect their laws, right? (To be clear, I'm not talking about enforcement of these kinds of laws, because all of those countries might do the above if given the chance. I'm talking about what I SHOULD do as a matter of morality or ethics or civic duty or whatever, or what my government should cooperate with those governments on, because it's just.) But the problem is that they're describing "doing business in their jurisdiction" as a citizen from their country (maybe even one who is currently visiting my country) going online and sending my server requests, data, and money. And apparently explicitly telling those citizens to please NOT do that, or blocking them, is not sufficient. The only way to make the majority of the EU users on HN happy is to comply. Why would that same logic not apply to all other kinds of laws?
- mrtksn 8y ago
  So do you argue that businesses that do business over the internet should be subject to the laws where the business is legally based? So, do you say that EU businesses should be able to operate in the USA but according to the EU laws and without any consideration to the US laws? Or is your arguments something else, something selfish like all online businesses should operate according to the US laws or something like online businesses should not be bound by any laws whatsoever? Or something else?
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    So, do you say that EU businesses should be able to operate in the USA but according to the EU laws and without any consideration to the US laws? If by "operate in the US" you mean that they are based in the EU and allow US residents to visit their website and purchase from them, then yes, absolutely. Why would it be any other way? I just don't see how the alternative works at all. Why couldn't some city in France pass a law that if a citizen of their city buys something from your site based in Hong Kong, you owe that city a tax of $50k. That's obviously ridiculous and not enforceable, but why is it not based on the same underlying legal theory that a business is bound by the laws of jurisdiction where visitors or customers to their site originate from?
    - mrtksn 8y ago
      Well, "HQ based law" not the case and it's a much larger discussion that doesn't have anything to do with the GDPR or EU. The USA too is going after foreign companies doing business with Iran or Cuba. The USA is not happy with cryptocurrency ICO's and it's enforcing it. The USA is forcing the world to respect DMCA. The taxes are also an issue, even within the USA doe to different VAT in different states. These are topics that have been in discussion since the beginning of the internet and the dust is just settling and the solution is not simple as "You obey to the laws according to the country you're based in". It's a huge huge topic. Edit: And FYI, many countries do enforce a tax on foreign purchases. For example, Turkey will be forcing American internet giants to charge VAT to its Turkish clients and transfer that VAT to the Turkish government. Countries want to collect taxes, you can't really get away with "I am an American company so I operate tax-free" argument. Politicians will work out an arrangement like "I will make your tax law enforceable on my companies if you let me use your military base and purchase weapons".