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Well, as it turns out, it's your problem. Like, literally :) Only if the EU can enforce it, which they can’t. I don’t pay attention to laws from other countrie

Well, as it turns out, it's your problem. Like, literally :) Only if the EU can enforce it, which they can’t. I don’t pay attention to laws from other countries that don’t apply to me and have no teeth, and I’ll ignore this one as well, until there’s some enforcement mechanism. At that point I’ll evaluate. I’d probably just block the EU though; not worth the hassle.

mrtksn 8y ago
>not worth the hassle There you get it. If your business is not profitable when you respect the privacy preferences of your users you simply don't do business. It's not your god given right to violate user's privacy so that you can turn a profit. In other words, if you can't make a profit by selling 1$ burgers when you meet hygiene requirements just get out of the 1$ burger business. No need for hard feelings.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  If your business is not profitable when you respect the privacy preferences of your users you simply don't do business. This is a false dichotomy: 1. Fully comply with the GDPR, no matter the cost, even if that's just legal and administrative because you're not actually doing anything in terms of data practices that would violate the law. 2. Go out of business, because you clearly are intending to do shady things that violate user privacy. if you can't make a profit by selling 1$ burgers when you meet hygiene requirements just get out of the 1$ burger business Perfect example. Say I run a burger shop that is perfectly clean and in compliance with all local laws, but the EU passes a law that says I need to fully audit all my food safety practices, publish them in a public place with their format, appoint a food safety rep in the EU, and comply with other vague requirements that they deem necessary, just in case an EU citizen visiting the US comes and eats at my shop. Now, if I ignore that, am I "breaking the law"? I guess so. Just like I might be breaking some Indian law by serving beef at all (hypothetical). But does it actually matter? Can the law be enforced? Should I care as a matter of civic duty? Very likely not. Worse, should the entire citizenry of the EU suddenly decide that my small town burger shop in Iowa clearly intends to feed every customer tainted beef and deserves their opprobrium and any fines that can possibly be levied by the EU, just because I didn't fully comply with their law? And if they do develop some enforcement mechanism to use against small town USA burger shop, how is it not my right to put up a sign that says "Sorry, EU customers, but please don't eat here, as I don't comply with your laws"? Is your argument seriously that I should comply with every law from every jurisdiction in the world, just because a customer from that jurisdiction might wander into my shop, even when I've expressly told them not to?
  - mrtksn 8y ago
    See, that's not what GDPR does. Maybe In your alternative-facts GDPR, your case may have a point. I don't see why I should argue over a hypothetical GDPR, let's focus on the reality. About the burger thing, we do not need to assume things here, we can examine the reality and the reality is that McDonald's complies with the EU regulations when doing business in the EU, local American burger shops that don't do business in the EU do not comply with the EU regulations. I hear that you have some amazing burgers in the USA, will definitely try few local shops!
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      OK, so let's say that hypothetically I run a small business in the US. I just sell access to software (that lives on my server in the US) instead of burgers. An EU visitor comes to my server in my country and buys something. Why should I care about their laws any more than the burger shop owner should?
      - mrtksn 8y ago
        Is your argument that someone else in the business should care or is your argument that EU visitors should not have rights to their data because it is inconvenient to you? Depending on your arrangement, if you are a reseller for example, you probably are not responsible for what that software does with your customer's data. Also, burger shops that do business in EU(usually chains, McDonald's and Burger King) do care about the EU food regulations, why shouldn't they and why shouldn't you? You are aware that McDonald's isn't steamrolling in the EU, right? They do follow the EU food regulations. And no, you don't have to be a big company to sell burgers in the EU, we have plenty of local independent burger shops all over the continent.
        ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        Burger shops IN the EU are a completely different thing. My primary argument is that the GDPR's attempt to regulate companies in other jurisdictions because EU citizens go INTO those jurisdictions and do business is a dangerous precedent. If there was an enforcement mechanism for all such laws, it implies that any business or individual anywhere in the world with a website should therefore have to comply with any laws from any jurisdiction that are similarly constructed. If my website says things about Islam that Saudi Arabia passes a law against, I should be fined. If my website disrespects the king of Thailand, I should be extradited for imprisonment. If I encourage NK citizens to revolt against their oppressive regime, I should end up in a labor camp. After all, those governments have a right to say that if I want to "do business in their jurisdiction", I must respect their laws, right? (To be clear, I'm not talking about enforcement of these kinds of laws, because all of those countries might do the above if given the chance. I'm talking about what I SHOULD do as a matter of morality or ethics or civic duty or whatever, or what my government should cooperate with those governments on, because it's just.) But the problem is that they're describing "doing business in their jurisdiction" as a citizen from their country (maybe even one who is currently visiting my country) going online and sending my server requests, data, and money. And apparently explicitly telling those citizens to please NOT do that, or blocking them, is not sufficient. The only way to make the majority of the EU users on HN happy is to comply. Why would that same logic not apply to all other kinds of laws?
- stale2002 8y ago
  Well they ARE doing business. They are just blocking the EU.

mrtksn 8y ago

>not worth the hassle There you get it. If your business is not profitable when you respect the privacy preferences of your users you simply don't do business. It's not your god given right to violate user's privacy so that you can turn a profit. In other words, if you can't make a profit by selling 1$ burgers when you meet hygiene requirements just get out of the 1$ burger business. No need for hard feelings.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
If your business is not profitable when you respect the privacy preferences of your users you simply don't do business. This is a false dichotomy: 1. Fully comply with the GDPR, no matter the cost, even if that's just legal and administrative because you're not actually doing anything in terms of data practices that would violate the law. 2. Go out of business, because you clearly are intending to do shady things that violate user privacy. if you can't make a profit by selling 1$ burgers when you meet hygiene requirements just get out of the 1$ burger business Perfect example. Say I run a burger shop that is perfectly clean and in compliance with all local laws, but the EU passes a law that says I need to fully audit all my food safety practices, publish them in a public place with their format, appoint a food safety rep in the EU, and comply with other vague requirements that they deem necessary, just in case an EU citizen visiting the US comes and eats at my shop. Now, if I ignore that, am I "breaking the law"? I guess so. Just like I might be breaking some Indian law by serving beef at all (hypothetical). But does it actually matter? Can the law be enforced? Should I care as a matter of civic duty? Very likely not. Worse, should the entire citizenry of the EU suddenly decide that my small town burger shop in Iowa clearly intends to feed every customer tainted beef and deserves their opprobrium and any fines that can possibly be levied by the EU, just because I didn't fully comply with their law? And if they do develop some enforcement mechanism to use against small town USA burger shop, how is it not my right to put up a sign that says "Sorry, EU customers, but please don't eat here, as I don't comply with your laws"? Is your argument seriously that I should comply with every law from every jurisdiction in the world, just because a customer from that jurisdiction might wander into my shop, even when I've expressly told them not to?
- mrtksn 8y ago
  See, that's not what GDPR does. Maybe In your alternative-facts GDPR, your case may have a point. I don't see why I should argue over a hypothetical GDPR, let's focus on the reality. About the burger thing, we do not need to assume things here, we can examine the reality and the reality is that McDonald's complies with the EU regulations when doing business in the EU, local American burger shops that don't do business in the EU do not comply with the EU regulations. I hear that you have some amazing burgers in the USA, will definitely try few local shops!
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    OK, so let's say that hypothetically I run a small business in the US. I just sell access to software (that lives on my server in the US) instead of burgers. An EU visitor comes to my server in my country and buys something. Why should I care about their laws any more than the burger shop owner should?
    - mrtksn 8y ago
      Is your argument that someone else in the business should care or is your argument that EU visitors should not have rights to their data because it is inconvenient to you? Depending on your arrangement, if you are a reseller for example, you probably are not responsible for what that software does with your customer's data. Also, burger shops that do business in EU(usually chains, McDonald's and Burger King) do care about the EU food regulations, why shouldn't they and why shouldn't you? You are aware that McDonald's isn't steamrolling in the EU, right? They do follow the EU food regulations. And no, you don't have to be a big company to sell burgers in the EU, we have plenty of local independent burger shops all over the continent.
      - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
        Burger shops IN the EU are a completely different thing. My primary argument is that the GDPR's attempt to regulate companies in other jurisdictions because EU citizens go INTO those jurisdictions and do business is a dangerous precedent. If there was an enforcement mechanism for all such laws, it implies that any business or individual anywhere in the world with a website should therefore have to comply with any laws from any jurisdiction that are similarly constructed. If my website says things about Islam that Saudi Arabia passes a law against, I should be fined. If my website disrespects the king of Thailand, I should be extradited for imprisonment. If I encourage NK citizens to revolt against their oppressive regime, I should end up in a labor camp. After all, those governments have a right to say that if I want to "do business in their jurisdiction", I must respect their laws, right? (To be clear, I'm not talking about enforcement of these kinds of laws, because all of those countries might do the above if given the chance. I'm talking about what I SHOULD do as a matter of morality or ethics or civic duty or whatever, or what my government should cooperate with those governments on, because it's just.) But the problem is that they're describing "doing business in their jurisdiction" as a citizen from their country (maybe even one who is currently visiting my country) going online and sending my server requests, data, and money. And apparently explicitly telling those citizens to please NOT do that, or blocking them, is not sufficient. The only way to make the majority of the EU users on HN happy is to comply. Why would that same logic not apply to all other kinds of laws?
stale2002 8y ago
Well they ARE doing business. They are just blocking the EU.