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As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up

by antris 8y ago

As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps. It's a lesson that I wish the rest of the world had had as well.

wolfgke 8y ago
> As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps. The Stasi (state security service) also spied a lot on the citizens. Do not forget that the GDR only ceased to exist in 1990.
John_KZ 8y ago
Many countries in Europe also faced fascist governments, military coups and oppressive regimes in the last 50-100 years. This leads to a much better understanding on how personal information can be lethal. And it's not just some distant thought, rejected as impossible to happen again. It happened in the past, and given the opportunity, it will happen again.
teamhappy 8y ago
Census data in particular. Edwin Black wrote a book about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
thomascarney 8y ago
Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. The German obsession with privacy has a LOT to do with making life difficult for tech companies, rather than the privacy of its citizens per say.
- no_identd 8y ago
  >Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. >Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. You left out the part where persons wishing to access those government records need to provide justification, a fee, and the access gets logged. Unfortunately, government employees accessing those records aren't as tightly regulated (although it's gotten better, iirc). So no, it has nothing to do with some intention of 'making life difficult for tech companies'.
  - thomascarney 8y ago
    I would argue it's fair to say that the current regulations were formulated with the intent to restrict the activities of tech companies. At the same time, though, you might see the problem of having the government collect data on religion (even if safeguards are in place today). Tomorrow the AfD might be in power, and they might use that data for purposes beyond those envisioned today. More broadly, I feel, while great to restrict tech companies, there are also very real dangers from the state collecting data.
- almost_usual 8y ago
  "The German obsession with privacy has a LOT to do with making life difficult for tech companies" Some people actually care about their information and who has it more than convenience. Maybe they don't trust corporations and assume their interests don't align. It wouldn't be bad assumption at this point. It's pretty obvious most tech companies value profit over anything else.
- freeflight 8y ago
  Some clarification: Having to register your religion mostly has to do with tax reasons, as the German state collects taxes for both Christian main branches. Outside of that context, it has literally zero relevance and you might as well just claim "No religion".
freeflight 8y ago
Not just WW2, but even reaching back to the German Empire/Weimar Republic with surveillance of homosexuals [0] and other collections of private citizen data, which to this day is considered a prime example of "You can't guarantee the next government won't abuse that data". The GDR with it's Stasi also didn't really make a great case for "Trust your government, give them all your data!" That's why a lot of Germans are very careful about private information, we've seen it abused at large scale, with inhumane results, not just once but twice. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Liste https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Liste

by antris 8y ago

wolfgke 8y ago

> As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps. The Stasi (state security service) also spied a lot on the citizens. Do not forget that the GDR only ceased to exist in 1990.

John_KZ 8y ago

Many countries in Europe also faced fascist governments, military coups and oppressive regimes in the last 50-100 years. This leads to a much better understanding on how personal information can be lethal. And it's not just some distant thought, rejected as impossible to happen again. It happened in the past, and given the opportunity, it will happen again.

teamhappy 8y ago

Census data in particular. Edwin Black wrote a book about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

thomascarney 8y ago

Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. The German obsession with privacy has a LOT to do with making life difficult for tech companies, rather than the privacy of its citizens per say.

no_identd 8y ago
>Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. >Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. You left out the part where persons wishing to access those government records need to provide justification, a fee, and the access gets logged. Unfortunately, government employees accessing those records aren't as tightly regulated (although it's gotten better, iirc). So no, it has nothing to do with some intention of 'making life difficult for tech companies'.
- thomascarney 8y ago
  I would argue it's fair to say that the current regulations were formulated with the intent to restrict the activities of tech companies. At the same time, though, you might see the problem of having the government collect data on religion (even if safeguards are in place today). Tomorrow the AfD might be in power, and they might use that data for purposes beyond those envisioned today. More broadly, I feel, while great to restrict tech companies, there are also very real dangers from the state collecting data.
almost_usual 8y ago
"The German obsession with privacy has a LOT to do with making life difficult for tech companies" Some people actually care about their information and who has it more than convenience. Maybe they don't trust corporations and assume their interests don't align. It wouldn't be bad assumption at this point. It's pretty obvious most tech companies value profit over anything else.
freeflight 8y ago
Some clarification: Having to register your religion mostly has to do with tax reasons, as the German state collects taxes for both Christian main branches. Outside of that context, it has literally zero relevance and you might as well just claim "No religion".

freeflight 8y ago

Not just WW2, but even reaching back to the German Empire/Weimar Republic with surveillance of homosexuals [0] and other collections of private citizen data, which to this day is considered a prime example of "You can't guarantee the next government won't abuse that data". The GDR with it's Stasi also didn't really make a great case for "Trust your government, give them all your data!" That's why a lot of Germans are very careful about private information, we've seen it abused at large scale, with inhumane results, not just once but twice. [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Liste https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Liste