4 ms·

I forget, did Braun ever sue Apple for all of those stolen designs? Anyway, shouldn't this be copyright law and not patent law?

by trimbo 8y ago

denzil_correa 8y ago
> I forget, did Braun ever sue Apple for all of those stolen designs? Did reasonable amount of people confuse a Braun Pocket radio with the Apple iPod?
- stickfigure 8y ago
  Has anyone ever accidentally bought a Samsung phone when they thought they were buying iPhone?
  - madeofpalk 8y ago
    Well, the courts believed so.
    - dba7dba 8y ago
      No not courts. Apple did not win in other non American courts. Not in Germany. Not in Japan. Not in Australia. Only in a courtroom in Silicon Valley. And with a jury headed by a jury foreman with very questionable opinions and patents himself. He had to be told to shut up after the verdict because he was going around interviewing saying things that tainted the verdict not so greatly.
    - tooltalk 8y ago
      and let's not forget Obama who reversed Samsung's win in ITC.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Yes. To fit the standard at issue here, that happened every time somebody bought a Samsung phone instead of an Apple phone because they thought both phones basically did the same thing. Most people who buy phones are not as engaged with the market as HN commenters are. The argument at play here seems to be: you can make something that looks like a Braun device if Braun doesn't already have a design-patented device that does the same thing. And you can make a device that does exactly the same thing as a Braun device as long as you don't try to make your device look confusingly similar to Braun's device. What you can't do is make a direct substitute for a design-patented Braun device, and then go out of your way to clone the design so that people have a hard time telling the difference between the two. Another simple way to look at this (it's incomplete, but might settle the issue for you) is that a lot of people pick their phone based on how it looks.
    - Covzire 8y ago
      So why don't we see this kind of behavior in the Automotive industry?
      - Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
        We do, sometimes. I remember a Peugeot-Citroen designer in the 90s complaining that he couldn’t tell the latest Rover apart from the Citroen he’d designed a year before.
        _nedR 8y ago
        Was his company awarded 500 million dollars in damages?
    - exodust 8y ago
      It's still a flawed argument. Just because Apple were the first to have a touch screen mobile device with rounded corners doesn't mean they should own that BASIC configuration preventing others from doing the same. I've owned both early iPhone and Samsung models and seriously they look and feel very different. The whole thing is a joke, and just irrational Apple "thermonuclear" sulking and foot-stomping. Don't forget that before the iPhone, there were a TON of competing models of regular phone on the market, often very similar. Nobody was stomping their legal foot and sulking about patent violation for how the corner of a phone was bevelled or not. So please stop apologising for Apple's ego-fuelled temper tantrums.
    - stickfigure 8y ago
      a lot of people pick their phone based on how it looks I guess I really just don't care. If people are buying products based on style, then anyone should be able to produce a product with that style, and you can't argue that people aren't getting what they want. "Style" should not be patentable, or we're entering a dystopia where you have to figure out who to pay royalties to when you decide what color tshirt to wear. bought a Samsung phone instead of an Apple phone because they thought both phones basically did the same thing is also unconvincing. Salespeople say this kind of shit all the time no matter what the product looks like. "Our version is better!" - it's practically their job. Except in egregious cases of salesperson misbehavior (ie fraud), the customer isn't confused about the origin of the product. Uninformed customers will make uninformed decisions, caveat emptor.
  - culturestate 8y ago
    The real question: has anyone bought a Samsung phone because they wanted something that looked like an iPhone but didn't particularly care or know enough to worry about it being an Apple device? "Hey, this Samsung phone is cheaper and looks the same, I'll just buy it instead" is probably more common than we'd think.
    - exodust 8y ago
      You mean what people did when buying normal cellphones before touch screen phones? And so what? Sounds to me like Apple came along with iPhone and said to themselves "now we must change how the game works, and prevent others from making similar phones as they do now, so let's put a patent on rounded corners and go thermo-nuclear on anyone who dares "copy"."
      - culturestate 8y ago
        Fast follow wasn't this blatant in the mobile space until the iPhone; there weren't any companies rushing out a near-exact replica of the Moto Q to profit off those sweet enterprise sales. Look at this from Apple's perspective: they spent a decade and hundreds of millions of dollars to create what was at the time a step change in mobile hardware, and then a bunch of other companies went "thanks for the 'inspiration'" and immediately began profiting from blatant copies of that original work. I'd be pissed, too.
        exodust 8y ago
        I think you're struggling to come to grips with the fact that it's only natural that if someone makes something that works because it's obvious, then others will also make variations of that thing. That's what manufacturers are doing, from Samsung to LG to Sony, they all have touch screen mobile phones with icons and similar features. It's childish for Apple to expect to have it all for themselves, then sue anyone who gets close to "rounded corners". Like if Ford sued anyone else for putting 4 wheels on a vehicle body. The Samsung phone is not a "clone", by any stretch. People saying this have swallowed the Apple rhetoric. And lastly, the technology in the iPhone was only possible because of electronics and software that was in part developed not by Apple, but by others. Apple should give it a rest, enjoy their riches. And, they should NOT build an Apple store at Fed Square in Melbourne Australia, we don't want it.
  - camhenlin 8y ago
    Yes, and I assume this anecdotal story of mine is not unique: phone salespeople do this. My grandmother (in her late 70s at the time) was sold an “iPhone” at a Verizon store, after her and I discussed which phone for her to get. It was a Samsung galaxy. At the time, she had an iPad and a MacBook so it made sense for her to get an iPhone when upgrading to her first smart phone. The salesperson explained to her it was essentially the same and did all of the same stuff, and called it a Samsung iPhone and explained that it was better than the Apple one. You can guess at my confusion trying to walk her through how to use her new iPhone over the phone, when it wasn’t actually an iPhone and did not work quite the same as her iPad. I assume the salesperson made a better commission on the Samsung phone than the Apple one. It was definitely a bit of a hassle after the fact to go turn that phone in and replace it with an iPhone.
    - exodust 8y ago
      Cool story bro, but most grandmothers don't know or care about technology gadgets and get confused easily. She would not have known or cared about "rounded corners". It's flawed logic to say it's a widespread problem that people "accidentally buy a Samsung" because a salesperson lied to your grandmother. That's an edge case that means nothing.
      - stickfigure 8y ago
        This would have been a great comment without the "Cool story bro". The salesperson could have convinced the grandmother to buy a "Sinclair iPhone by Timex", assuming it was packaged into something roughly phone-shaped. The problem here isn't the appearance of the product.
        exodust 8y ago
        I don't write to satisfy comment "greatness". Downvote if you don't like my post, the editorial review isn't needed. I will happily point the finger at any tech giant when it does wrong, but Samsung didn't do anything to warrant years of court battles and accusations. It's tiring to hear people defend Apple's sideshow legal agenda. The "touch screen phone" was inevitable, and was always going to be something with round-ish corners, flat, with icons. The shape is too fundamental to the ergonomics of such a device. There's too little room for difference in design, relative to the objective of making such a device comfortable to hold. I had the Nokia N9 for awhile, and the pointy/squared corners were not a great feature. They probably wanted to avoid rounded corners, which is a ridiculous situation where consumers lose out.

I forget, did Braun ever sue Apple for all of those stolen designs? Anyway, shouldn't this be copyright law and not patent law?

by trimbo 8y ago

I forget, did Braun ever sue Apple for all of those stolen designs? Anyway, shouldn't this be copyright law and not patent law?

denzil_correa 8y ago

> I forget, did Braun ever sue Apple for all of those stolen designs? Did reasonable amount of people confuse a Braun Pocket radio with the Apple iPod?

stickfigure 8y ago
Has anyone ever accidentally bought a Samsung phone when they thought they were buying iPhone?
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  Well, the courts believed so.
  - dba7dba 8y ago
    No not courts. Apple did not win in other non American courts. Not in Germany. Not in Japan. Not in Australia. Only in a courtroom in Silicon Valley. And with a jury headed by a jury foreman with very questionable opinions and patents himself. He had to be told to shut up after the verdict because he was going around interviewing saying things that tainted the verdict not so greatly.
  - tooltalk 8y ago
    and let's not forget Obama who reversed Samsung's win in ITC.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Yes. To fit the standard at issue here, that happened every time somebody bought a Samsung phone instead of an Apple phone because they thought both phones basically did the same thing. Most people who buy phones are not as engaged with the market as HN commenters are. The argument at play here seems to be: you can make something that looks like a Braun device if Braun doesn't already have a design-patented device that does the same thing. And you can make a device that does exactly the same thing as a Braun device as long as you don't try to make your device look confusingly similar to Braun's device. What you can't do is make a direct substitute for a design-patented Braun device, and then go out of your way to clone the design so that people have a hard time telling the difference between the two. Another simple way to look at this (it's incomplete, but might settle the issue for you) is that a lot of people pick their phone based on how it looks.
  - Covzire 8y ago
    So why don't we see this kind of behavior in the Automotive industry?
    - Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
      We do, sometimes. I remember a Peugeot-Citroen designer in the 90s complaining that he couldn’t tell the latest Rover apart from the Citroen he’d designed a year before.
      - _nedR 8y ago
        Was his company awarded 500 million dollars in damages?
  - exodust 8y ago
    It's still a flawed argument. Just because Apple were the first to have a touch screen mobile device with rounded corners doesn't mean they should own that BASIC configuration preventing others from doing the same. I've owned both early iPhone and Samsung models and seriously they look and feel very different. The whole thing is a joke, and just irrational Apple "thermonuclear" sulking and foot-stomping. Don't forget that before the iPhone, there were a TON of competing models of regular phone on the market, often very similar. Nobody was stomping their legal foot and sulking about patent violation for how the corner of a phone was bevelled or not. So please stop apologising for Apple's ego-fuelled temper tantrums.
  - stickfigure 8y ago
    a lot of people pick their phone based on how it looks I guess I really just don't care. If people are buying products based on style, then anyone should be able to produce a product with that style, and you can't argue that people aren't getting what they want. "Style" should not be patentable, or we're entering a dystopia where you have to figure out who to pay royalties to when you decide what color tshirt to wear. bought a Samsung phone instead of an Apple phone because they thought both phones basically did the same thing is also unconvincing. Salespeople say this kind of shit all the time no matter what the product looks like. "Our version is better!" - it's practically their job. Except in egregious cases of salesperson misbehavior (ie fraud), the customer isn't confused about the origin of the product. Uninformed customers will make uninformed decisions, caveat emptor.
- culturestate 8y ago
  The real question: has anyone bought a Samsung phone because they wanted something that looked like an iPhone but didn't particularly care or know enough to worry about it being an Apple device? "Hey, this Samsung phone is cheaper and looks the same, I'll just buy it instead" is probably more common than we'd think.
  - exodust 8y ago
    You mean what people did when buying normal cellphones before touch screen phones? And so what? Sounds to me like Apple came along with iPhone and said to themselves "now we must change how the game works, and prevent others from making similar phones as they do now, so let's put a patent on rounded corners and go thermo-nuclear on anyone who dares "copy"."
    - culturestate 8y ago
      Fast follow wasn't this blatant in the mobile space until the iPhone; there weren't any companies rushing out a near-exact replica of the Moto Q to profit off those sweet enterprise sales. Look at this from Apple's perspective: they spent a decade and hundreds of millions of dollars to create what was at the time a step change in mobile hardware, and then a bunch of other companies went "thanks for the 'inspiration'" and immediately began profiting from blatant copies of that original work. I'd be pissed, too.
      - exodust 8y ago
        I think you're struggling to come to grips with the fact that it's only natural that if someone makes something that works because it's obvious, then others will also make variations of that thing. That's what manufacturers are doing, from Samsung to LG to Sony, they all have touch screen mobile phones with icons and similar features. It's childish for Apple to expect to have it all for themselves, then sue anyone who gets close to "rounded corners". Like if Ford sued anyone else for putting 4 wheels on a vehicle body. The Samsung phone is not a "clone", by any stretch. People saying this have swallowed the Apple rhetoric. And lastly, the technology in the iPhone was only possible because of electronics and software that was in part developed not by Apple, but by others. Apple should give it a rest, enjoy their riches. And, they should NOT build an Apple store at Fed Square in Melbourne Australia, we don't want it.
- camhenlin 8y ago
  Yes, and I assume this anecdotal story of mine is not unique: phone salespeople do this. My grandmother (in her late 70s at the time) was sold an “iPhone” at a Verizon store, after her and I discussed which phone for her to get. It was a Samsung galaxy. At the time, she had an iPad and a MacBook so it made sense for her to get an iPhone when upgrading to her first smart phone. The salesperson explained to her it was essentially the same and did all of the same stuff, and called it a Samsung iPhone and explained that it was better than the Apple one. You can guess at my confusion trying to walk her through how to use her new iPhone over the phone, when it wasn’t actually an iPhone and did not work quite the same as her iPad. I assume the salesperson made a better commission on the Samsung phone than the Apple one. It was definitely a bit of a hassle after the fact to go turn that phone in and replace it with an iPhone.
  - exodust 8y ago
    Cool story bro, but most grandmothers don't know or care about technology gadgets and get confused easily. She would not have known or cared about "rounded corners". It's flawed logic to say it's a widespread problem that people "accidentally buy a Samsung" because a salesperson lied to your grandmother. That's an edge case that means nothing.
    - stickfigure 8y ago
      This would have been a great comment without the "Cool story bro". The salesperson could have convinced the grandmother to buy a "Sinclair iPhone by Timex", assuming it was packaged into something roughly phone-shaped. The problem here isn't the appearance of the product.
      - exodust 8y ago
        I don't write to satisfy comment "greatness". Downvote if you don't like my post, the editorial review isn't needed. I will happily point the finger at any tech giant when it does wrong, but Samsung didn't do anything to warrant years of court battles and accusations. It's tiring to hear people defend Apple's sideshow legal agenda. The "touch screen phone" was inevitable, and was always going to be something with round-ish corners, flat, with icons. The shape is too fundamental to the ergonomics of such a device. There's too little room for difference in design, relative to the objective of making such a device comfortable to hold. I had the Nokia N9 for awhile, and the pointy/squared corners were not a great feature. They probably wanted to avoid rounded corners, which is a ridiculous situation where consumers lose out.