8 ms·

Most engineering jobs never had perks like those found at Google and Facebook, just like most journalism jobs never had perks like those found at Time, Inc. Al

Most engineering jobs never had perks like those found at Google and Facebook, just like most journalism jobs never had perks like those found at Time, Inc. Although the cases are quite similar: Magazines and newspapers once were solid industries with some highly-profitable companies and where one could at least get a solid wage, and, if one was lucky, one could live a luxurious life on the company's dime. Now even the strongest newspapers and magazines are struggling, and one is lucky to have a job in the field at all, never mind a basic expense account. Someday that will happen to the Googles and Facebooks of the technology industry, and similarly to the perks they once provided their employees.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
I still find it completely confusing when programmers say engineering. Are you talking about real engineering jobs like civil and mechanical engineering or do you mean programming?
- owebmaster 8y ago
  Do you think that engineering a house is more "engineering" than engineering a social network for 2 billion people?
  - JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
    Yes I do. If more people got training or specifically we had some building codes or ethics training about how to make a social network that isn’t harmful to those millions that participate in it, we might not be in the state we are in right now.
  - pjmorris 8y ago
    "If a builder has built a house for a man, and has not made his work sound, and the house he built has fallen, and caused the death of its owner, that builder shall be put to death." - from Hammurabi's code [0][1], circa 1754 BC. Liability in the case of house-building has been established for millennia. Liability in the case of social networks is somewhat less well-established. I'd argue that being able to deal with the consequences of the results (e.g. the social consequences of ads and posts in the 2016 election, or leaking private conversations, or hitting pedestrians from today's HN front page) is a key part of maturing an engineering field. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi [1] http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ancient/hamframe.asp http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ancient/hamframe.asp
    - dredmorbius 8y ago
      The professionalism of the trade itself has little to do with the nature of the work itself. Software development and network management are engineering work, but the trades have yet to develop engineering guilds as with mechanical, civil, aeronautical, electrical, chemical, etc., engineering. The present situation with data breeches, social impacts, systems vulnerabilities (think IoT) may change this. The fluidityy of tthe field makes this challenging. Engineering certification itself isn't some eternal concept. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=certified%20engineer&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccertified%20engineer%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=certified%20en...
    - mindslight 8y ago
      The customers of contemporary social networks are the advertisers themselves. The "users" are more analogous to those on the business ends of weapons.
    - owebmaster 8y ago
      > I'd argue that being able to deal with the consequences of the results (e.g. the social consequences of ads and posts in the 2016 election, or leaking private conversations, or hitting pedestrians from today's HN front page) The same way you can argue that the constructions and architeture also have social consequences both positive and negative but the engineers and architects are responsible only for the physical structure.
- compiler-guy 8y ago
  I think this is a classic case of someone using a term informally [me] being questioned by someone who wants to use a term formally, and exclusively so [you]. Unfortunately, language often doesn't work like that. I'm using the term informally.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Software engineering is a very different job market from engineering-engineering (the one that involves the title Professional Engineer), so in this case the distinction is justified.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - compiler-guy 8y ago
      The issue isn't if the distinction is justified, or makes sense. Clearly it does. The issue is that language usage is often conversational and informal, and people often don't make the distinction the GP wants them to make. Insisting that they do is a losing game.
- dwheeler 8y ago
  Software development is engineering, because like all engineering, it is using knowledge and Technology to build things that solve human problems. I say this as someone who has an Electronics engineering degree.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    I use Wordpress and my English degree to write blog posts for dentists (seriously this is my job). Am I a Content Engineer?
    - smcnally 8y ago
      I won't definitively answer your question, but know you are loved. The world is more interesting with you in it.
      - paulcole 8y ago
        I hate my life but like my job, oddly enough.
- auggierose 8y ago
  It's similar to when people here talk about "tech".
- davidgay 8y ago
  My computer science degree (from www.epfl.ch) comes with an official (as in, legally protected [0]) engineer title. Not all people, institutions, countries make the same distinction between "real engineering" topics and other topics that you seem to be assuming. [0]: in Switzerland, it's the specific claim to have an engineering degree from the EPFL that is protected. https://bachelor.epfl.ch/structure-etudes https://bachelor.epfl.ch/structure-etudes (in French) also mentions that France - where "engineer" is a protected title - officially recognises EPFL graduates as engineers...
  - ghaff 8y ago
    There is a Professional Engineer exam for software engineering in the US but it's going away because almost no one sits for it. Getting a PE is by no means universal for other engineering branches in the US either. It's most common in industries where you deal with regulators and have to sign off on plans, drawings, etc. for those regulators. When I worked as a mechanical engineer for oil rig design and other work, I took an engineer-in-training exam and would have gotten a PE after working for the requisite number of years.
- ghaff 8y ago
  I wouldn't say that all programming really qualifies as engineering but if you don't think it's part of an engineering discipline, you should probably tell schools like MIT who give computer science degrees (which certainly include programming) out of their engineering schools.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago

I still find it completely confusing when programmers say engineering. Are you talking about real engineering jobs like civil and mechanical engineering or do you mean programming?

owebmaster 8y ago
Do you think that engineering a house is more "engineering" than engineering a social network for 2 billion people?
- JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
  Yes I do. If more people got training or specifically we had some building codes or ethics training about how to make a social network that isn’t harmful to those millions that participate in it, we might not be in the state we are in right now.
- pjmorris 8y ago
  "If a builder has built a house for a man, and has not made his work sound, and the house he built has fallen, and caused the death of its owner, that builder shall be put to death." - from Hammurabi's code [0][1], circa 1754 BC. Liability in the case of house-building has been established for millennia. Liability in the case of social networks is somewhat less well-established. I'd argue that being able to deal with the consequences of the results (e.g. the social consequences of ads and posts in the 2016 election, or leaking private conversations, or hitting pedestrians from today's HN front page) is a key part of maturing an engineering field. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi [1] http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ancient/hamframe.asp http://avalon.law.yale.edu/ancient/hamframe.asp
  - dredmorbius 8y ago
    The professionalism of the trade itself has little to do with the nature of the work itself. Software development and network management are engineering work, but the trades have yet to develop engineering guilds as with mechanical, civil, aeronautical, electrical, chemical, etc., engineering. The present situation with data breeches, social impacts, systems vulnerabilities (think IoT) may change this. The fluidityy of tthe field makes this challenging. Engineering certification itself isn't some eternal concept. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=certified%20engineer&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccertified%20engineer%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=certified%20en...
  - mindslight 8y ago
    The customers of contemporary social networks are the advertisers themselves. The "users" are more analogous to those on the business ends of weapons.
  - owebmaster 8y ago
    > I'd argue that being able to deal with the consequences of the results (e.g. the social consequences of ads and posts in the 2016 election, or leaking private conversations, or hitting pedestrians from today's HN front page) The same way you can argue that the constructions and architeture also have social consequences both positive and negative but the engineers and architects are responsible only for the physical structure.
compiler-guy 8y ago
I think this is a classic case of someone using a term informally [me] being questioned by someone who wants to use a term formally, and exclusively so [you]. Unfortunately, language often doesn't work like that. I'm using the term informally.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Software engineering is a very different job market from engineering-engineering (the one that involves the title Professional Engineer), so in this case the distinction is justified.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - compiler-guy 8y ago
    The issue isn't if the distinction is justified, or makes sense. Clearly it does. The issue is that language usage is often conversational and informal, and people often don't make the distinction the GP wants them to make. Insisting that they do is a losing game.
dwheeler 8y ago
Software development is engineering, because like all engineering, it is using knowledge and Technology to build things that solve human problems. I say this as someone who has an Electronics engineering degree.
- paulcole 8y ago
  I use Wordpress and my English degree to write blog posts for dentists (seriously this is my job). Am I a Content Engineer?
  - smcnally 8y ago
    I won't definitively answer your question, but know you are loved. The world is more interesting with you in it.
    - paulcole 8y ago
      I hate my life but like my job, oddly enough.
auggierose 8y ago
It's similar to when people here talk about "tech".
davidgay 8y ago
My computer science degree (from www.epfl.ch) comes with an official (as in, legally protected [0]) engineer title. Not all people, institutions, countries make the same distinction between "real engineering" topics and other topics that you seem to be assuming. [0]: in Switzerland, it's the specific claim to have an engineering degree from the EPFL that is protected. https://bachelor.epfl.ch/structure-etudes https://bachelor.epfl.ch/structure-etudes (in French) also mentions that France - where "engineer" is a protected title - officially recognises EPFL graduates as engineers...
- ghaff 8y ago
  There is a Professional Engineer exam for software engineering in the US but it's going away because almost no one sits for it. Getting a PE is by no means universal for other engineering branches in the US either. It's most common in industries where you deal with regulators and have to sign off on plans, drawings, etc. for those regulators. When I worked as a mechanical engineer for oil rig design and other work, I took an engineer-in-training exam and would have gotten a PE after working for the requisite number of years.
ghaff 8y ago
I wouldn't say that all programming really qualifies as engineering but if you don't think it's part of an engineering discipline, you should probably tell schools like MIT who give computer science degrees (which certainly include programming) out of their engineering schools.