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Let's not conflate human worth with value to society. I hope we can all agree that all human lives are of equal worth. We all have different strengths and weakn

Let's not conflate human worth with value to society. I hope we can all agree that all human lives are of equal worth. We all have different strengths and weaknesses though, and some of us will have strengths that align more closely with what society needs. We're lucky enough to live in a society that's (more or less) set up so that people are rewarded proportionally to how much they can contribute to everyone else. Of course it's not perfect, and of course there are assholes and corruption, but in context of history, it's the best deal we've ever had, IMO. No, we shouldn't put down people who aren't very smart. We should help them. But I think we need to take a step back before we start saying that the (rough) meritocracy we have set up is some kind of dystopia. Can anyone actually provide a better alternative?

dv_dt 8y ago
I was with you until the last two sentences. There are many better alternatives for at least parts of our society that haven't been given a chance. e.g. universal healthcare has been demonstrated as a better alternative in multiple forms and all other modern nations.
kolbe 8y ago
> Let's not conflate human worth with value to society. I hope we can all agree that all human lives are of equal worth. Reminds me of this passage from Sapeins: "a human being who belongs to any particular culture must hold contradictory beliefs and be riven by incompatible values. It’s such an essential feature of any culture that it even has a name: cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is often considered a failure of the human psyche. In fact, it is a vital asset. Had people been unable to hold contradictory beliefs and values, it would probably have been impossible to establish and maintain any human culture."
- anbende 8y ago
  The passage describes the benefit of having the ability to hold conflicting beliefs. Interestingly this is not what cognitive dissonance is. Cognitive dissonance is the uncomfortable feeling we have when our beliefs conflict. Research in this area shows that people are quite intolerant to this feeling and will tend to alter their beliefs to alleviate it. Cognitive dissonance actually prevents us from holding conflicting beliefs. This is the opposite of what the cited passage describes. Perhaps it is a translation issue as the source material was originally in Hebrew.
  - facetube 8y ago
    I read OP as "the ability to endure and be comfortable with cognitive dissonance".
minitel 8y ago
The majority of any society, by definition, will not be exceptional. So, it's natural for majorities to feel envious toward people a few STDEVs to the right of them. The majority makes up for their averageness by force of number. Which is dangerous. Because in systems where being a member of the majority is rewarded and lauded, the majority will tend to punish everything above average. Hammer down the nail that sticks out so to speak. We don't want to go down this path. But sadly the language of equality makes it all but inevitable that we will eventually take it.
casefields 8y ago
All lives are not of equal worth. If that were the case the president wouldn't have a phalanx of Secret Service protecting him at all times.
- some_account 8y ago
  They are of equal worth in a spiritual sense. Society doesn't put the same value on them but that's because of economy and the economic output their life generate for society. Value is subjective to who you think puts value to something. If there is a God, he doesn't care about economy. :)
  - ThrowawayR2 8y ago
    > If there is a God, he doesn't care about economy. If there is a God (or equivalent deity), he would be worth infinitely more than any other sapient being, thus disproving that all sapient beings are of equal worth even in a spiritual sense.
  - BeetleB 8y ago
    >If there is a God, he doesn't care about economy. Generally, God does care about other things, though - so still not equal :-)
- tptacek 8y ago
  He'll lose almost all of that phalanx when he leaves office. What does that say about the value of his life? It's the continuity of the office we value, in this case.
  - casefields 8y ago
    Presidents have secret service protection for life. Bush took it away but Obama reinstated it.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      Yes, I acknowledged that.

dv_dt 8y ago

I was with you until the last two sentences. There are many better alternatives for at least parts of our society that haven't been given a chance. e.g. universal healthcare has been demonstrated as a better alternative in multiple forms and all other modern nations.

kolbe 8y ago

> Let's not conflate human worth with value to society. I hope we can all agree that all human lives are of equal worth. Reminds me of this passage from Sapeins: "a human being who belongs to any particular culture must hold contradictory beliefs and be riven by incompatible values. It’s such an essential feature of any culture that it even has a name: cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is often considered a failure of the human psyche. In fact, it is a vital asset. Had people been unable to hold contradictory beliefs and values, it would probably have been impossible to establish and maintain any human culture."

anbende 8y ago
The passage describes the benefit of having the ability to hold conflicting beliefs. Interestingly this is not what cognitive dissonance is. Cognitive dissonance is the uncomfortable feeling we have when our beliefs conflict. Research in this area shows that people are quite intolerant to this feeling and will tend to alter their beliefs to alleviate it. Cognitive dissonance actually prevents us from holding conflicting beliefs. This is the opposite of what the cited passage describes. Perhaps it is a translation issue as the source material was originally in Hebrew.
- facetube 8y ago
  I read OP as "the ability to endure and be comfortable with cognitive dissonance".

minitel 8y ago

The majority of any society, by definition, will not be exceptional. So, it's natural for majorities to feel envious toward people a few STDEVs to the right of them. The majority makes up for their averageness by force of number. Which is dangerous. Because in systems where being a member of the majority is rewarded and lauded, the majority will tend to punish everything above average. Hammer down the nail that sticks out so to speak. We don't want to go down this path. But sadly the language of equality makes it all but inevitable that we will eventually take it.

casefields 8y ago

All lives are not of equal worth. If that were the case the president wouldn't have a phalanx of Secret Service protecting him at all times.

some_account 8y ago
They are of equal worth in a spiritual sense. Society doesn't put the same value on them but that's because of economy and the economic output their life generate for society. Value is subjective to who you think puts value to something. If there is a God, he doesn't care about economy. :)
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  > If there is a God, he doesn't care about economy. If there is a God (or equivalent deity), he would be worth infinitely more than any other sapient being, thus disproving that all sapient beings are of equal worth even in a spiritual sense.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  >If there is a God, he doesn't care about economy. Generally, God does care about other things, though - so still not equal :-)
tptacek 8y ago
He'll lose almost all of that phalanx when he leaves office. What does that say about the value of his life? It's the continuity of the office we value, in this case.
- casefields 8y ago
  Presidents have secret service protection for life. Bush took it away but Obama reinstated it.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Yes, I acknowledged that.