4 ms·

If there was an arc flash risk he should have been wearing appropriate PPE. Arc flash is something you don’t argue with. It burns and blinds you almost instant

by setquk 8y ago

If there was an arc flash risk he should have been wearing appropriate PPE. Arc flash is something you don’t argue with. It burns and blinds you almost instantly and fires vaporised metal into your torso potentially killing you. I’d like to understand the policy and procedures and equipment that was available first. A lot of electrical engineers refuse to use the PPE aware of the risks because it’s uncomfortable and takes time to put on. Here’s typical PPE for that event to give you an idea the dangers involved: https://www.utilityproducts.com/articles/2012/01/arc-flash-protection-suit-is-lightweight.html https://www.utilityproducts.com/articles/2012/01/arc-flash-p... From his injuries it was clear he was not using it. Possibly just a flash visor looking at the lack of direct facial injuries and that was it.

madaxe_again 8y ago
He wasn’t. From TFA, his employer, MkIII construction, was fined, as he wasn’t trained or qualified to work on energised kit either. I’ll be honest, I’m struggling to see how this is tesla’s fault. If I hire an electrician to do wiring at home, and they send along some guy who isn’t trained, and he then electrifies himself through negligence - should I be sued by him? What could I have done differently?
- setquk 8y ago
  Yep. In that case Tesla shouldn’t even be mentioned in this. It just makes a good headline. I’m perpetually surprised at how crap even supposedly trained electricians are. At best they don’t understand the consequences of not doing something properly. Even domestic electricians I’ve hired, because I’m not allowed to certify the work myself here in the UK, I’ve had to correct their work when they have gone.
  - haldean 8y ago
    This guy was a trainee.
    - setquk 8y ago
      Whoever trained him or was responsible for him is liable then.
  - i386 8y ago
    Tesla didn’t mention it. The article quotes an anonymous ex-employee
  - madaxe_again 8y ago
    I think from the comments there’s a radically different approach to responsibilities on this over the pond. Re: correcting their work, ditto. Was fuming a month ago when I discovered two rings connected to the same socket - and managed to fit the two way dimmer (single common on a dual gang) he’d said was impossible. Think he only knew of one by-rote way to do a two-way, and didn’t actually understand what he was doing. Hell, he thought the US uses DC power - I explained that it was just a different voltage, and AC, and the look on his face said “voltage?”, so I left it at that. He didn’t even notice I’d rewired when he came back to sign off “his” work. OTOH there are incompetents in all fields - just that electricity is a pretty bad thing to be incompetent at if it’s your job - I learned a healthy respect for the tingly stuff the hard way. Oh, and I was recently in Uruguay, where nobody seems to understand what the funny green and yellow wire is for, and hook it up to live. Metal skinned laptop. Funky chicken.
- blackbagboys 8y ago
  If Tesla refused to cut the power but required the work to be done anyway, it's absolutely their fault.
  - setquk 8y ago
    Most of those sorts of things are done on live kit. There are procedures and equipment that reduce the risk to virtually nothing. Which weren’t used clearly.
- Gibbon1 8y ago
  > If I hire an electrician to do wiring at home The difference is licensed electrician is trained and qualified to wire a home safely. That's a requirement because home owners are typically dingbats. Tesla is a manufacturing corporation. The responsibility flows the other way.
  - michaelt 8y ago
    In the factories and offices I've worked in in the UK, if you want a socket installed you hire a licensed electrician regardless of whether it's a 5 amp socket for laptops in a meeting room, or a 3 phase, 200 amp socket for a piece of industrial equipment. Of course, from a _moral_ perspective "they're a contractor" isn't a 100% bulletproof defence, given how fast and loose some companies will play with the definition of employee vs contractor.
    - Gibbon1 8y ago
      Thing is an industrial business is ultimately responsible for insuring that safety procedures are followed by not only employees but contractors as well. Because the law and regulators assume they are not idiots. (unlike a home owner or a flower shop) Friend of mine works at a place where a few years ago an electrician was burned when a 440 panel blew up on him and they were shut down for 6 months while the house engineers, maintence personal and contractors were 'retrained' Then again they aren't 'Tesla'
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  Call me cynical, but the guy can probably get a much higher lump damages sum from tesla than from MkIII, the latter of which is likely to just go bankrupt if they had to pay damages.
  - setquk 8y ago
    That sounds very feasible. He has probably been advised to sue everyone to get his medical bills paid.
  - madaxe_again 8y ago
    If an electrical contractor doesn’t have sufficient liability insurance for this sort of event, they probably deserve bankruptcy. An employer has a moral duty to ensure the wellbeing of their employees and organisation by applying foresight and minimising risks, and covering unavoidable risks with insurance. In my book, the responsibility sits firmly with the employer - not another business who had a contract with that employer, and a reasonable expectation that that employer would be adequately competent and insured. If anything, there was a failure on Tesla’s behalf around due diligence. If the law disagrees with me, so be it - but it seems unreasonable.
- eigenvector 8y ago
  At home? No, you shouldn't be responsible, since you're relying in good faith on the services of a purportedly-qualified professional. On an industrial worksite? Absolutely, the owner should be responsible for safety. Otherwise it's too easy for big companies to throw up their hands and say "oh, that tower crane that collapsed and killed a bunch of people on our construction project? Sorry, it's owned by a shell company in China. Good luck collecting any damages from us!"

by setquk 8y ago

madaxe_again 8y ago

He wasn’t. From TFA, his employer, MkIII construction, was fined, as he wasn’t trained or qualified to work on energised kit either. I’ll be honest, I’m struggling to see how this is tesla’s fault. If I hire an electrician to do wiring at home, and they send along some guy who isn’t trained, and he then electrifies himself through negligence - should I be sued by him? What could I have done differently?

setquk 8y ago
Yep. In that case Tesla shouldn’t even be mentioned in this. It just makes a good headline. I’m perpetually surprised at how crap even supposedly trained electricians are. At best they don’t understand the consequences of not doing something properly. Even domestic electricians I’ve hired, because I’m not allowed to certify the work myself here in the UK, I’ve had to correct their work when they have gone.
- haldean 8y ago
  This guy was a trainee.
  - setquk 8y ago
    Whoever trained him or was responsible for him is liable then.
- i386 8y ago
  Tesla didn’t mention it. The article quotes an anonymous ex-employee
- madaxe_again 8y ago
  I think from the comments there’s a radically different approach to responsibilities on this over the pond. Re: correcting their work, ditto. Was fuming a month ago when I discovered two rings connected to the same socket - and managed to fit the two way dimmer (single common on a dual gang) he’d said was impossible. Think he only knew of one by-rote way to do a two-way, and didn’t actually understand what he was doing. Hell, he thought the US uses DC power - I explained that it was just a different voltage, and AC, and the look on his face said “voltage?”, so I left it at that. He didn’t even notice I’d rewired when he came back to sign off “his” work. OTOH there are incompetents in all fields - just that electricity is a pretty bad thing to be incompetent at if it’s your job - I learned a healthy respect for the tingly stuff the hard way. Oh, and I was recently in Uruguay, where nobody seems to understand what the funny green and yellow wire is for, and hook it up to live. Metal skinned laptop. Funky chicken.
blackbagboys 8y ago
If Tesla refused to cut the power but required the work to be done anyway, it's absolutely their fault.
- setquk 8y ago
  Most of those sorts of things are done on live kit. There are procedures and equipment that reduce the risk to virtually nothing. Which weren’t used clearly.
Gibbon1 8y ago
> If I hire an electrician to do wiring at home The difference is licensed electrician is trained and qualified to wire a home safely. That's a requirement because home owners are typically dingbats. Tesla is a manufacturing corporation. The responsibility flows the other way.
- michaelt 8y ago
  In the factories and offices I've worked in in the UK, if you want a socket installed you hire a licensed electrician regardless of whether it's a 5 amp socket for laptops in a meeting room, or a 3 phase, 200 amp socket for a piece of industrial equipment. Of course, from a _moral_ perspective "they're a contractor" isn't a 100% bulletproof defence, given how fast and loose some companies will play with the definition of employee vs contractor.
  - Gibbon1 8y ago
    Thing is an industrial business is ultimately responsible for insuring that safety procedures are followed by not only employees but contractors as well. Because the law and regulators assume they are not idiots. (unlike a home owner or a flower shop) Friend of mine works at a place where a few years ago an electrician was burned when a 440 panel blew up on him and they were shut down for 6 months while the house engineers, maintence personal and contractors were 'retrained' Then again they aren't 'Tesla'
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
Call me cynical, but the guy can probably get a much higher lump damages sum from tesla than from MkIII, the latter of which is likely to just go bankrupt if they had to pay damages.
- setquk 8y ago
  That sounds very feasible. He has probably been advised to sue everyone to get his medical bills paid.
- madaxe_again 8y ago
  If an electrical contractor doesn’t have sufficient liability insurance for this sort of event, they probably deserve bankruptcy. An employer has a moral duty to ensure the wellbeing of their employees and organisation by applying foresight and minimising risks, and covering unavoidable risks with insurance. In my book, the responsibility sits firmly with the employer - not another business who had a contract with that employer, and a reasonable expectation that that employer would be adequately competent and insured. If anything, there was a failure on Tesla’s behalf around due diligence. If the law disagrees with me, so be it - but it seems unreasonable.
eigenvector 8y ago
At home? No, you shouldn't be responsible, since you're relying in good faith on the services of a purportedly-qualified professional. On an industrial worksite? Absolutely, the owner should be responsible for safety. Otherwise it's too easy for big companies to throw up their hands and say "oh, that tower crane that collapsed and killed a bunch of people on our construction project? Sorry, it's owned by a shell company in China. Good luck collecting any damages from us!"