3 ms·

They are not negative sum, because they provide entertainment. Also, all systems that pay taxes are negative sum as well! Utility is not measured in money.

dpq 8y ago
Entertainment can also have negative value. That's what the parent meant: your entertainment is provided by someone exploiting your gambling-addicted (and gambling may cause an actual addiction afaik, no less so than opioid addiction although based on different biochemistry) dopamine circuitry in order to extract actual (social) value.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  All entertainment is someone exploiting your chemistry. Thats the whole point.
wpietri 8y ago
They mainly provide addiction. Go to a casino sometime and look around. Do those people look like they're entertained? The slot machine zombies barely look human anymore. You're also wrong about taxes. Consider my local taqueria. They buy raw materials and create value by making ready-to-eat food just when people are hungry. They receive cash in exchange, a portion of which they pay in taxes to fund the infrastructure their business depends upon. That is positive sum for all participants. It has to be. If taxes tipped it into the negative sum category, they'd eventually close down.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  I dont think you've followed through on that model of yours. If you buy 50 dollars of taco materials, then taco materials seller makes likes than 50 dollars ,because the state will charge a tax on him. If he didnt sell 50 dollars worth of raw materials, he would have 50 dollars of raw materials to consume, instead of less than 50 dollars. On the other side, making the taco, you have the same issue: if you sell 100 dollars of tacos, and someone pays you 100 dollars for them, you then pay taxes. You earn less than 100 dollars, and someone else lost 100 dollars. Repeat the proces ad-infinitum and your holdings go to 0.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  I dont think you've followed through on that model of yours. If you buy 50 dollars of taco materials, then taco materials seller makes likes than 50 dollars ,because the state will charge a tax on him. If he didnt sell 50 dollars worth of raw materials, he would have 50 dollars of raw materials to consume, instead of less than 50 dollars. On the other side, making the taco, you have the same issue: if you sell 100 dollars of tacos, and someone pays you 100 dollars for them, you then pay taxes. You earn less than 100 dollars, and someone else lost 100 dollars. Repeat the proces ad-infinitum and your holdings go to 0. (assuming for simplification, any rate of positive taxation on income).
  - wpietri 8y ago
    This makes no sense at all, and is not how business works. Most economic activity is positive sum. When I'm hungry and on the go, a taco is more valuable to me than raw taco materials, so I pay more for it. Value has been created. The taqueria owner takes money in, pays their expenses, and is left with a profit. Taxes are paid out of that profit, and you could just as well model it as another kind of expense, a societal infrastructure fee. Many countries use value creation as an explicit taxation model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax Those are still positive-sum interactions in the economic sense: https://www.tutor2u.net/economics/blog/qa-what-is-a-positive-sum-game https://www.tutor2u.net/economics/blog/qa-what-is-a-positive...
    - conanbatt 8y ago
      > Value has been created But not dollars, which is what you are using to classify gambling as negative-sum. > Many countries use value creation as an explicit taxation model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax If the gobernment collected that tax but didnt spend or issued money, even VAT ends up capturing all the money supply. This is an unnecessary long argumentation. Gambling is not negative sum because they provider entertainment that has utility.
      - wpietri 8y ago

dpq 8y ago

Entertainment can also have negative value. That's what the parent meant: your entertainment is provided by someone exploiting your gambling-addicted (and gambling may cause an actual addiction afaik, no less so than opioid addiction although based on different biochemistry) dopamine circuitry in order to extract actual (social) value.

conanbatt 8y ago
All entertainment is someone exploiting your chemistry. Thats the whole point.

wpietri 8y ago

They mainly provide addiction. Go to a casino sometime and look around. Do those people look like they're entertained? The slot machine zombies barely look human anymore. You're also wrong about taxes. Consider my local taqueria. They buy raw materials and create value by making ready-to-eat food just when people are hungry. They receive cash in exchange, a portion of which they pay in taxes to fund the infrastructure their business depends upon. That is positive sum for all participants. It has to be. If taxes tipped it into the negative sum category, they'd eventually close down.

conanbatt 8y ago
I dont think you've followed through on that model of yours. If you buy 50 dollars of taco materials, then taco materials seller makes likes than 50 dollars ,because the state will charge a tax on him. If he didnt sell 50 dollars worth of raw materials, he would have 50 dollars of raw materials to consume, instead of less than 50 dollars. On the other side, making the taco, you have the same issue: if you sell 100 dollars of tacos, and someone pays you 100 dollars for them, you then pay taxes. You earn less than 100 dollars, and someone else lost 100 dollars. Repeat the proces ad-infinitum and your holdings go to 0.
conanbatt 8y ago
I dont think you've followed through on that model of yours. If you buy 50 dollars of taco materials, then taco materials seller makes likes than 50 dollars ,because the state will charge a tax on him. If he didnt sell 50 dollars worth of raw materials, he would have 50 dollars of raw materials to consume, instead of less than 50 dollars. On the other side, making the taco, you have the same issue: if you sell 100 dollars of tacos, and someone pays you 100 dollars for them, you then pay taxes. You earn less than 100 dollars, and someone else lost 100 dollars. Repeat the proces ad-infinitum and your holdings go to 0. (assuming for simplification, any rate of positive taxation on income).
- wpietri 8y ago
  This makes no sense at all, and is not how business works. Most economic activity is positive sum. When I'm hungry and on the go, a taco is more valuable to me than raw taco materials, so I pay more for it. Value has been created. The taqueria owner takes money in, pays their expenses, and is left with a profit. Taxes are paid out of that profit, and you could just as well model it as another kind of expense, a societal infrastructure fee. Many countries use value creation as an explicit taxation model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax Those are still positive-sum interactions in the economic sense: https://www.tutor2u.net/economics/blog/qa-what-is-a-positive-sum-game https://www.tutor2u.net/economics/blog/qa-what-is-a-positive...
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    > Value has been created But not dollars, which is what you are using to classify gambling as negative-sum. > Many countries use value creation as an explicit taxation model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax If the gobernment collected that tax but didnt spend or issued money, even VAT ends up capturing all the money supply. This is an unnecessary long argumentation. Gambling is not negative sum because they provider entertainment that has utility.
    - wpietri 8y ago