7 ms·

Doing Y Combinator in your 30s

176 points by dannyr 16y ago

pwim 16y ago
If age doesn't matter, why is it on the application form to YC?
- jon_dahl 16y ago
  Good question. My guess: age helps put other accomplishments in context. "Worked at Google for 6 years" means different things if you're 35 than if you're 21.
wyclif 16y ago
I await the upcoming blog post "Doing Y Combinator in Your 40's." That's something I'd read immediately.
- danielnicollet 16y ago
  ... and I want "Doing Y Combinator in Your 70's." Is that wrong kids?
  - RK 16y ago
    The startup I was working for until recently (building scientific hardware) was founded by a couple in their 70's. They basically sunk all of their retirement money into it. I can't say that it was the best financial move in the world, especially when the economy went south and you're trying to sell $1M+ pieces of equipment.
    - mahmud 16y ago
      A friend of mine works for a government contractor software shop started by a nana in her later 60s. Except nana was an old-school Fortran programmer and knew her way around Visual Studio. The cuteness wears off within an instant of hearing her speak: she is just another systems architect robbed of all innocence by decades of requirement analysis and systems integration. I also met another lady in her late 60s at George Mason university. We chatted up at the library checkout line, and I ended up getting lectured about mobile proof carrying code by someone in a christmas sweater, and bifocals left barely hanging on her nose. My 1337 credentials took a hit that day.
    - Tichy 16y ago
      Come to think of it, they are in a similar position as the young kids: very little risk. What do they have to lose? They might not need that much money anymore.
      - Symbol 16y ago
        I have no numbers in front of me, but I'm sure cost of living for over-65 is greater than for under-25, if only in terms of health care costs. It's subtly worse than that however: the 22 year old can roll that experience into their resume and make themselves more attractive to future, traditional employers. Talk to any out-of-worker 60 year old, and you'll hear tales of woe about ageism and "too experienced".
- jfb 16y ago
  I was 38 when I started YC. I think that there are advantages to starting late, well enumerated in the linked blog post. I came to YC from Apple, which is about as stressful a "square job" as you're likely to find, and haven't really encountered anything in startup life that's worse than staring down a Jobs imposed deadline that you Just. Can't. Hit.
- Jun8 16y ago
  I'm in my 40s and aligning things to apply for YC, so, YES, I would not only read that article but print and frame it!
dirktheman 16y ago
Thank you for sharing this. I'm 31 too, and currently working on my YC application. In my case, I'm even more focused on making things work because I have a mortgage to pay and a family to support. A lean burn rate is one of the means to this end.
tptacek 16y ago
If you're technical and you think you've got enough hustle to start a company, you can run at an arbitrary standard of living for a long time as a 1099 contractor. I'm past arguing that YC isn't worth it because the money is too small and getting funded is a bad trajectory[1]; the program has clearly been a huge win for a lot of people. But you can execute the 37signals playbook after attending YC. Just go, launch, and then consult. If you have a 3-person team with a strong dev that has a short runway, that dev should have no trouble picking up 1-2 month projects to keep himself going with the company. It is so straightforward to do this, the money is so good, and the commitments are so flexible that I'm led to question the "you should make as little as possible" advice. Why burn your family out? There's no points for effort, only for execution. I'm 34, for what it's worth. [1] I still believe both those things, though.
- jon_dahl 16y ago
  Without turning this into "37signals vs. Y Combinator", let's just say there are pros and cons to each approach. One of the cons of contracting is can be really hard to divide your attention in a startup. If there is any possible way you can devote 100% of your attention to a startup, then by all means, do it. I'm 10x more productive when I put 100% of my time into a startup instead of 50%. 10x, not 2x. Just my experience. On the other hand, contracting is a great backup plan. It kept Zencoder alive in the early days, and we still do some video-related consulting work to reduce our burn and compliment our encoding service. There's no points for effort, only for execution. Well said. Mind if I use that? :)
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Contracting is very distracting. But it's distracting in a different way than a full-time job. And I think it's game-changing for lean startups in a way that may moot some of the concern about concentration. First, contracting requires hustle just like moving a product does. It's an investment decision (of time, rather than money) in a way that a 9-5 job can't be. It involves company building and has knock-on effects (recruiting, applications for IP) that can help the product business. And it is flexible. And this whole notion that you need unbreakable concentration to start a company seems like an extension of the idea that there's a runway, launch, and hockey-stick curve to all product businesses. But those things that yo' liable to read in de blog posts, they ain't necessarily so. Particularly if you have a functioning consulting engine. I'm less familiar with direct-to-consumer products than most people on HN are; I sell to businesses. The overlap between selling services to companies and selling products to companies is significant. Maybe you should consider something businesses want, so you have options besides getting shot out of the VC cannon.
gigantor 16y ago
I'm in my 30's and I feel I have one huge advantage over numerous 20-somethings: ability to do short term contract work, and fund the startup that way. This is assuming : a) you have enough networking/experience to land sufficient paid contract work fairly easily b) your short term contract (3-6 months) can provide you just enough income to keep you going for the rest of the year. Sure, I certainly don't have the careless energy level as I had in my 20's, and have a lot more responsibility, but the ability to work smarter, having a better eye for what may or may not work through experience, and identifying the right people to hang out with surely makes up for the shortcomings. Last, but this is huge for me personally, is the feeling of 'this is my last chance' that's ever more so prevalent now than in my 20's, where I always knew I had some leeway years left as an excuse to not put in 100%.
- kapitti 16y ago
  I'm not sure someone that was going to perform short term contracting during YC would get accepted.
  - gigantor 16y ago
    Certainly not, but the idea behind contracting is that you make enough to fund yourself, and therefore not require YC money in the first place. Most YC amounts are around the $20k range, which you can easily make with a few months of contracting.
sunir 16y ago
The post-investment salary rule is something a lot of people trip over, but it's important. The rule is simple: Pay yourself enough that you're not thinking about taking a part-time job to support yourself (and your family). You should be able to focus on the startup without financial distraction. You don't need money to put into savings. You don't need a fancy car. You don't need fine dining. You're sacrificing now for the chance at big upside later. Every dollar you waste on yourself is hurting your chances of bigger success.
- dpapathanasiou 16y ago
  You don't need money to put into savings. I was with you except for that; having savings is important, especially if the company fails.
  - joshuacc 16y ago
    I think he meant that you don't need to be putting current income into savings.
    - dedward 16y ago
      It's a matter of financial opinion I think - putting a percentage of your income, whatever that's a little or a lot, into your long-term savings should be a mandatory thing for most people - like food and shelter. It's money you never touch - it need not be a lot, but it's not something you should simply stop doing just because you're cutting corners - it's more important in the long run than people often give it credit for.
Tichy 16y ago
Is bringing spouse and kid along an option at all? Also if you are from overseas - is it possible with visa?
- rgrieselhuber 16y ago
  I was in Japan, brought my wife and two kids with me, am 35 and am a single founder. Ha! Didn't need a visa though, but there are ways of making work if you do.
- datsro 16y ago
  If you hope to focus on the work as often as you can, I would recommend not bringing the kids. It can be done but boundaries need to be in place for your spouse/kids and your co-founders.
  - rgrieselhuber 16y ago
    If you can stand to be away from them for more than a day. I can't.
- brandonarbini 16y ago
  It's possible for sure, but definitely tough. My family came with me, but we were only together on the weekends. Without a doubt it was one of the hardest, most stretching, and most valuable experiences of my life.
eric9 16y ago
Programmer. Smart and driven. Went to MIT or Stanford, or else skipped college altogether. Am I the only one who sometimes feels like you might as well have skipped college if you didn't go to Stanford, MIT, or some other top school? Anything else seems to be considered Blub U., and Google and the other cool companies that you would like to work for don't hire from Blub U. Maybe this is why so many hackers who didn't get into MIT or some other top school turn to entrepreneurship; degree or no degree, the job opportunities aren't so hot otherwise.
- seiji 16y ago
  It's just talk. Ignore them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Buchheit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Buchheit "went to college at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio."
  - eric9 16y ago
    Notice, it says he was employee #23. I think Google's standards have risen since then, and even if they make the odd exception here and there, betting on being such an exception seems questionable.
    - mechanical_fish 16y ago
      Why, I do believe my beloved alma mater has been slandered! I need to recruit Buchheit and Eric Meyer and the ghost of A.A. Michaelson and Donald freaking Knuth and come kick your butt! ;) No, seriously: It doesn't matter. People manage to succeed with pitiful little CWRU degrees like my own. And, obviously, many of the most successful people in the industry never went to college at all. I have heard the occasional rumor that Google is obsessed with academic credentials. If true, that is more of a problem for them than for you.
      - eric9 16y ago
        I wasn't bashing CW, just pointing out that it was easier to get hired at Google in the early days than it is now, and picking out early hires who didn't go to Stanford isn't really representative of their current hiring practices and isn't something you should count on happening to you.
dgallagher 16y ago
Dave Thomas founded Wendy's when he was ~37 years old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_(American_businessman)#Wendy.27s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_(American_businessm... Sam Walton founded Wal-Mart when he was ~44: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton#The_first_Wal-Mart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton#The_first_Wal-Mart Henry Ford founded Ford when he was ~40: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_ford#Ford_Motor_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_ford#Ford_Motor_Company
- muhfuhkuh 16y ago
  Oracle was started when Larry Ellison was 33.
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  ANd a thousand others were founded by people of all ages. Not really statistically significant, but interesting.
edanm 16y ago
Funny story: I was looking for a domain name for my blog. I have a Taoism/Zen theme, so I registered a few names in that genre (like "The Tao of Code"). As I was looking around, I tried ZenCoder. I was annoyed to see that it was already in use, but I quickly forgot about it. A few months later, I started reading about them in Tech Crunch and on HN! I ended up going with LoopyCode.com.
jpuderer 16y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I'm 31, married, with no kids so far. I quit my job to pursue a startup. It's good timing for me. To be a successful founder, I don't think that it makes a lot of difference how old you are, but it does make a significant different where you are in life. I think this manifests itself most if you're trying to find a co-founder. Most founders in their early 20s have very little in the way of assets or obligations to speak of. This makes finding a compatible co-founder in the same age group much easier. Everyone starts out in a similar situation. On the other hand, founders in their 30s have had a lot more time to complicate their situation (for better or worse): kids, marriage, mortgage, and money. Finding a co-founder is more difficult, since accommodating both potential founders can be more difficult. There's more to accommodate. In my social circles, there tend to be more complicated situations than simple ones. Does anyone have any experience to share?
dean 16y ago
Y Combinator is strictly for college kids. The restriction is based not on age, but on money. Older people are implicitly excluded because they can't afford to give up their income to pursue a startup. Wife, kids and a mortgage cost money. As a result, I think the Y Combinator startup market is only a fraction of what it could be, if older founders could be included. I imagine there would be so many more and different ideas than what we currently see. I think a Y Combinator-like incubator, that provides enough funding for older founders, would thrive. If funding was in the range of say 70K to 90K per founder, many more companies could be started. And really, that's still not a lot of money for the VC/Angel/Incubator industry. It wouldn't take too many hits to make a profit for the funders with these numbers. Despite what the original post says, Y Combinator is implicitly intended for college-age kids. And that's fine. But think of how many more opportunities there could be for both Y Combinator and founders, if the funding available could support older people.

176 points by dannyr 16y ago

pwim 16y ago

If age doesn't matter, why is it on the application form to YC?

jon_dahl 16y ago
Good question. My guess: age helps put other accomplishments in context. "Worked at Google for 6 years" means different things if you're 35 than if you're 21.

wyclif 16y ago

I await the upcoming blog post "Doing Y Combinator in Your 40's." That's something I'd read immediately.

danielnicollet 16y ago
... and I want "Doing Y Combinator in Your 70's." Is that wrong kids?
- RK 16y ago
  The startup I was working for until recently (building scientific hardware) was founded by a couple in their 70's. They basically sunk all of their retirement money into it. I can't say that it was the best financial move in the world, especially when the economy went south and you're trying to sell $1M+ pieces of equipment.
  - mahmud 16y ago
    A friend of mine works for a government contractor software shop started by a nana in her later 60s. Except nana was an old-school Fortran programmer and knew her way around Visual Studio. The cuteness wears off within an instant of hearing her speak: she is just another systems architect robbed of all innocence by decades of requirement analysis and systems integration. I also met another lady in her late 60s at George Mason university. We chatted up at the library checkout line, and I ended up getting lectured about mobile proof carrying code by someone in a christmas sweater, and bifocals left barely hanging on her nose. My 1337 credentials took a hit that day.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Come to think of it, they are in a similar position as the young kids: very little risk. What do they have to lose? They might not need that much money anymore.
    - Symbol 16y ago
      I have no numbers in front of me, but I'm sure cost of living for over-65 is greater than for under-25, if only in terms of health care costs. It's subtly worse than that however: the 22 year old can roll that experience into their resume and make themselves more attractive to future, traditional employers. Talk to any out-of-worker 60 year old, and you'll hear tales of woe about ageism and "too experienced".
jfb 16y ago
I was 38 when I started YC. I think that there are advantages to starting late, well enumerated in the linked blog post. I came to YC from Apple, which is about as stressful a "square job" as you're likely to find, and haven't really encountered anything in startup life that's worse than staring down a Jobs imposed deadline that you Just. Can't. Hit.
Jun8 16y ago
I'm in my 40s and aligning things to apply for YC, so, YES, I would not only read that article but print and frame it!

dirktheman 16y ago

Thank you for sharing this. I'm 31 too, and currently working on my YC application. In my case, I'm even more focused on making things work because I have a mortgage to pay and a family to support. A lean burn rate is one of the means to this end.

tptacek 16y ago

If you're technical and you think you've got enough hustle to start a company, you can run at an arbitrary standard of living for a long time as a 1099 contractor. I'm past arguing that YC isn't worth it because the money is too small and getting funded is a bad trajectory[1]; the program has clearly been a huge win for a lot of people. But you can execute the 37signals playbook after attending YC. Just go, launch, and then consult. If you have a 3-person team with a strong dev that has a short runway, that dev should have no trouble picking up 1-2 month projects to keep himself going with the company. It is so straightforward to do this, the money is so good, and the commitments are so flexible that I'm led to question the "you should make as little as possible" advice. Why burn your family out? There's no points for effort, only for execution. I'm 34, for what it's worth. [1] I still believe both those things, though.

jon_dahl 16y ago
Without turning this into "37signals vs. Y Combinator", let's just say there are pros and cons to each approach. One of the cons of contracting is can be really hard to divide your attention in a startup. If there is any possible way you can devote 100% of your attention to a startup, then by all means, do it. I'm 10x more productive when I put 100% of my time into a startup instead of 50%. 10x, not 2x. Just my experience. On the other hand, contracting is a great backup plan. It kept Zencoder alive in the early days, and we still do some video-related consulting work to reduce our burn and compliment our encoding service. There's no points for effort, only for execution. Well said. Mind if I use that? :)
- tptacek 16y ago
  Contracting is very distracting. But it's distracting in a different way than a full-time job. And I think it's game-changing for lean startups in a way that may moot some of the concern about concentration. First, contracting requires hustle just like moving a product does. It's an investment decision (of time, rather than money) in a way that a 9-5 job can't be. It involves company building and has knock-on effects (recruiting, applications for IP) that can help the product business. And it is flexible. And this whole notion that you need unbreakable concentration to start a company seems like an extension of the idea that there's a runway, launch, and hockey-stick curve to all product businesses. But those things that yo' liable to read in de blog posts, they ain't necessarily so. Particularly if you have a functioning consulting engine. I'm less familiar with direct-to-consumer products than most people on HN are; I sell to businesses. The overlap between selling services to companies and selling products to companies is significant. Maybe you should consider something businesses want, so you have options besides getting shot out of the VC cannon.

gigantor 16y ago

I'm in my 30's and I feel I have one huge advantage over numerous 20-somethings: ability to do short term contract work, and fund the startup that way. This is assuming : a) you have enough networking/experience to land sufficient paid contract work fairly easily b) your short term contract (3-6 months) can provide you just enough income to keep you going for the rest of the year. Sure, I certainly don't have the careless energy level as I had in my 20's, and have a lot more responsibility, but the ability to work smarter, having a better eye for what may or may not work through experience, and identifying the right people to hang out with surely makes up for the shortcomings. Last, but this is huge for me personally, is the feeling of 'this is my last chance' that's ever more so prevalent now than in my 20's, where I always knew I had some leeway years left as an excuse to not put in 100%.

kapitti 16y ago
I'm not sure someone that was going to perform short term contracting during YC would get accepted.
- gigantor 16y ago
  Certainly not, but the idea behind contracting is that you make enough to fund yourself, and therefore not require YC money in the first place. Most YC amounts are around the $20k range, which you can easily make with a few months of contracting.

sunir 16y ago

The post-investment salary rule is something a lot of people trip over, but it's important. The rule is simple: Pay yourself enough that you're not thinking about taking a part-time job to support yourself (and your family). You should be able to focus on the startup without financial distraction. You don't need money to put into savings. You don't need a fancy car. You don't need fine dining. You're sacrificing now for the chance at big upside later. Every dollar you waste on yourself is hurting your chances of bigger success.

dpapathanasiou 16y ago
You don't need money to put into savings. I was with you except for that; having savings is important, especially if the company fails.
- joshuacc 16y ago
  I think he meant that you don't need to be putting current income into savings.
  - dedward 16y ago
    It's a matter of financial opinion I think - putting a percentage of your income, whatever that's a little or a lot, into your long-term savings should be a mandatory thing for most people - like food and shelter. It's money you never touch - it need not be a lot, but it's not something you should simply stop doing just because you're cutting corners - it's more important in the long run than people often give it credit for.

Tichy 16y ago

Is bringing spouse and kid along an option at all? Also if you are from overseas - is it possible with visa?

rgrieselhuber 16y ago
I was in Japan, brought my wife and two kids with me, am 35 and am a single founder. Ha! Didn't need a visa though, but there are ways of making work if you do.
datsro 16y ago
If you hope to focus on the work as often as you can, I would recommend not bringing the kids. It can be done but boundaries need to be in place for your spouse/kids and your co-founders.
- rgrieselhuber 16y ago
  If you can stand to be away from them for more than a day. I can't.
brandonarbini 16y ago
It's possible for sure, but definitely tough. My family came with me, but we were only together on the weekends. Without a doubt it was one of the hardest, most stretching, and most valuable experiences of my life.

eric9 16y ago

Programmer. Smart and driven. Went to MIT or Stanford, or else skipped college altogether. Am I the only one who sometimes feels like you might as well have skipped college if you didn't go to Stanford, MIT, or some other top school? Anything else seems to be considered Blub U., and Google and the other cool companies that you would like to work for don't hire from Blub U. Maybe this is why so many hackers who didn't get into MIT or some other top school turn to entrepreneurship; degree or no degree, the job opportunities aren't so hot otherwise.

seiji 16y ago
It's just talk. Ignore them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Buchheit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Buchheit "went to college at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio."
- eric9 16y ago
  Notice, it says he was employee #23. I think Google's standards have risen since then, and even if they make the odd exception here and there, betting on being such an exception seems questionable.
  - mechanical_fish 16y ago
    Why, I do believe my beloved alma mater has been slandered! I need to recruit Buchheit and Eric Meyer and the ghost of A.A. Michaelson and Donald freaking Knuth and come kick your butt! ;) No, seriously: It doesn't matter. People manage to succeed with pitiful little CWRU degrees like my own. And, obviously, many of the most successful people in the industry never went to college at all. I have heard the occasional rumor that Google is obsessed with academic credentials. If true, that is more of a problem for them than for you.
    - eric9 16y ago
      I wasn't bashing CW, just pointing out that it was easier to get hired at Google in the early days than it is now, and picking out early hires who didn't go to Stanford isn't really representative of their current hiring practices and isn't something you should count on happening to you.

dgallagher 16y ago

Dave Thomas founded Wendy's when he was ~37 years old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_(American_businessman)#Wendy.27s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Thomas_(American_businessm... Sam Walton founded Wal-Mart when he was ~44: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton#The_first_Wal-Mart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton#The_first_Wal-Mart Henry Ford founded Ford when he was ~40: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_ford#Ford_Motor_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_ford#Ford_Motor_Company

muhfuhkuh 16y ago
Oracle was started when Larry Ellison was 33.
JoeAltmaier 16y ago
ANd a thousand others were founded by people of all ages. Not really statistically significant, but interesting.

edanm 16y ago

Funny story: I was looking for a domain name for my blog. I have a Taoism/Zen theme, so I registered a few names in that genre (like "The Tao of Code"). As I was looking around, I tried ZenCoder. I was annoyed to see that it was already in use, but I quickly forgot about it. A few months later, I started reading about them in Tech Crunch and on HN! I ended up going with LoopyCode.com.

jpuderer 16y ago

I'm in a similar boat. I'm 31, married, with no kids so far. I quit my job to pursue a startup. It's good timing for me. To be a successful founder, I don't think that it makes a lot of difference how old you are, but it does make a significant different where you are in life. I think this manifests itself most if you're trying to find a co-founder. Most founders in their early 20s have very little in the way of assets or obligations to speak of. This makes finding a compatible co-founder in the same age group much easier. Everyone starts out in a similar situation. On the other hand, founders in their 30s have had a lot more time to complicate their situation (for better or worse): kids, marriage, mortgage, and money. Finding a co-founder is more difficult, since accommodating both potential founders can be more difficult. There's more to accommodate. In my social circles, there tend to be more complicated situations than simple ones. Does anyone have any experience to share?

dean 16y ago

Y Combinator is strictly for college kids. The restriction is based not on age, but on money. Older people are implicitly excluded because they can't afford to give up their income to pursue a startup. Wife, kids and a mortgage cost money. As a result, I think the Y Combinator startup market is only a fraction of what it could be, if older founders could be included. I imagine there would be so many more and different ideas than what we currently see. I think a Y Combinator-like incubator, that provides enough funding for older founders, would thrive. If funding was in the range of say 70K to 90K per founder, many more companies could be started. And really, that's still not a lot of money for the VC/Angel/Incubator industry. It wouldn't take too many hits to make a profit for the funders with these numbers. Despite what the original post says, Y Combinator is implicitly intended for college-age kids. And that's fine. But think of how many more opportunities there could be for both Y Combinator and founders, if the funding available could support older people.