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How about first improve Apple maps or at least let us use Google maps with Car Play? https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ https://www.justinobeirne.

How about first improve Apple maps or at least let us use Google maps with Car Play? https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ Google Maps's Moat - Justin O'Beirne Only then fix Siri and then try your hand at an automated car. Maps and Siri will not kill someone. But honestly if Apple can not figure out maps or Siri how on Earth would they do a car?

abritinthebay 8y ago
Apple Maps has been better than Google Maps for me (especially UI wise) for several years now. Siri may not be perfect but she’s pretty darn good and, frankly, the only trustworthy assistant on the market.
- guidedlight 8y ago
  Google Assistant is more capable than Siri. Apple has lost a lot of ground.
  - icanhackit 8y ago
    True for now, but WWDC in June might tell a different story.
    - cozzyd 8y ago
      Yeah, they can enlist VW's help in story telling.
    - pier25 8y ago
      I siriously doubt it.
      - icanhackit 8y ago
        I was responding to the "Apple has lost a lot of ground" part, I'm not suggesting Apple will overtake Google with their assistant. I should have quoted the original text.
        pier25 8y ago
        Oh, right. Thanks for making that clear.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    And until Apple abandons their position on privacy as well as builds their own search engine/advertising platform they will forever struggle with Google. For better or worse that's the road Apple chose.
    - bobsil1 8y ago
      More likely Google/FB's surveillance model gets incrementally banned.
      - fiblye 8y ago
        It might end up superficially banned in the EU or something, but their data collection is just too valuable to America, China, and Europe's governments to actually forbid.
    - taurath 8y ago
      And that’s why I’m on their platform despite the drawbacks.
      - jacksmith21006 8y ago
        Sounds like you might want to actually read the Apple privacy agreement. Here is a copy for you. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ Think you might be surprised of what data Apple is able to collect. The one that most bothers me is quoted here. "When you share your content with family and friends using Apple products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to participate in Apple services or forums, Apple may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number. " Apple is great at marketing but was hoping we could have a discussion on reality.
    - jacksmith21006 8y ago
      That is NOT true. Here in the US is the Apple privacy agreement. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ Apple has access to all the same data. Plus Apple even takes the right to collect data on people you interact with. I quote "When you share your content with family and friends using Apple products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to participate in Apple services or forums, Apple may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number. Apple will use such information to fulfill your requests, provide the relevant product or service, or for anti-fraud purposes." Wish we could end this narrative that is just not true. Heck Apple told the TV networks they would share your viewing data on the Apple TV. "Apple TV service will share viewing data with networks, report claims" http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-tv-service-will-share-viewing-data-with-networks-report-claims-2933925 http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-tv-service-will-sha... Google will target ads in some cases but they are not giving your data away to a third party. Plus Apple handing over all their users data in China has to be the biggest privacy betrayal example with any big tech company in the US. Have we ever had anything else like it? "Campaign targets Apple over privacy betrayal for Chinese iCloud users" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... Ironically China gov was hacking Gmail accounts and Google instead chose to leave China. I get marketing but hope on HN we can use reality instead of marketing narratives.
- nemonemo 8y ago
  After reading this comment, I genuinely wondered in which aspects Apple Maps is better than Google Maps, since I've mostly used Google Maps for years. So I just opened up the Apple Maps and searched a few places, and it was surprisingly responsive. There are a few deficiencies, but I could see why Apple's map itself could be good enough for 90% of people. IMO, navigation is a different story. I think navigation is one area where the up-to-date accurate information matters, and it seems Google has advantages in this part, thanks to Waze and its massive geo data. Also, Apple navigation UI really needs some critical improvements, like first-person perspective.
  - mantas 8y ago
    TBH Google navigation sucks in recent years. No, I'm not going to take dirt road shortcut while driving on highways is supposed to be 10min longer. If locals speed on that dirt road in their AWD vehicles, that doesn't mean I'll do 70km/h on unknown dirt road in a small FWD car. It got to the point that I'm double-checking all Gmaps directions on other services. And if I know area well enough, I don't need Gmaps at all..
    - jacksmith21006 8y ago
      Used Google Maps all across Europe not long ago on holiday and just amazed how well it works. Kids would try with Apple Maps and mostly we would end up laughing as it directed us to some crazy place that Google Maps would get on the first try. But my issue is the bigger picture. I just do not get why it is acceptable at Apple to provide a poor user experience with Siri and Apple Maps compared to competitors?
      - mantas 8y ago
        Incidentally, I am in Europe. Apple was laughably bad a couple years ago, but it's getting better. Although still not as good as Google. But now Apple conservative routing sometimes is better than Google's too opportunistic one. Another problem is Google still can't get house numbering correctly. They just don't care and get be off by 0.5km in some developments. What is worst, they don't tell they don't know exact location. They pretend to guesstimate it and sometimes it goes really wrong. Sometimes their guesstimation messes up the address itself too. For example, recently I was looking for XYZ square #123. They routed me to XYZ street #123 instead. Which was in a different neighbourhood. All in all, neither Google nor Apple beats old good Garmin and local mapping with UI brought straight from early 00s. Both Apple and Google and care about smaller markets or less visited locations. If 90% of their customers are happy 90% of time, I guess that's enough for them :/
- veidr 8y ago
  > pretty darn good Compared to what? A cat? Siri is worst-of-class technology in terms of voice-based assistant. I carry both Apple's latest phone and Google's latest phone, and it would never occur to me to use Siri for a voice task other than "set timer" (so it buzzes on my watch too). It's true that Apple is the only company playing this game that I might trust with an in-home always-connected assistant appliance like HomePod/Alexa/Google-whatever, but since Siri utterly sucks, I do not.
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    Completely agree and have a tough time understanding how anyone could push back? Yet you are down voted? I do not get why it is acceptable now for Apple to provide an inferior user experience? Why do people defend it? If people really need it broken down here is a great link. https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ On Siri it seems like people finally agree that Siri is horrible compared to the Google Assistant. Also why acceptable? This is about self driving cars. Apple cars kill people will that also be acceptable? Why?
saimiam 8y ago
Jesus, this is such a dumbass comment. It’s exactly how people in India feel when some redditor starts shitting on us for rape when the topic is the space race. Why don’t you fix your attitude instead of telling Apple Maps to go fix itself?
threeseed 8y ago
I don't think have any idea how any of this really works. The issue that Apple has with Maps and Siri is lack of data. They simply don't have all of the street view or POI data which allows them to accurately identify businesses or identify gaps in mapping data. Likewise for Siri they don't have access to Google's Knowledge Graph and Apple's position on privacy limits what personal data is available. None of this is a reflection on Apple's abilities in Data Science in which they've done some outstanding work on with (a) differential privacy with iOS and (b) FaceID. And just because the Maps and Siri teams have issues of there own doesn't mean Apple has to stop everything they are doing until it is fixed. They can walk and chew gum at the same time.
- dangero 8y ago
  How does Siri have a lack of data? They send all Siri requests to their servers. They have it all. It's not a data problem with Siri, and to excuse Apple Maps after all these years --- come on, they have unlimited budget. There is no excuse at all. If this is the outcome after all this time they should have never made maps at all. I'm an Apple fan and I'm saying this.
  - jakobegger 8y ago
    In my experience, there’s no problem with data about roads, routing etc in Apple Maps. That stuff works well, and in some cases even better than Google (Google Maps makes hilarious mispronunciations for German names that sometimes make it hard to follow voice instructions). Where Apple fails miserably is search, and local place names. Apple Maps data will often show results in a different country instead of whatever I meant to search for in my city. Trying to find businesses if you don’t know the full official names is practically impossible. Apple Maps works great if you know the official address, but it’s pretty much useless for anything else.
    - Reason077 8y ago
      The Apple Maps location search experience has improved hugely in the last several years, at least here in the UK. It's still not quite up there with Google Map's location knowledge, but it's certainly not the often-innacurate mess it once was. The big difference I see now days comes down to how quickly the data is updated. To test this, take a newly opened (or closed) restaurant or store and compare Apple and Google's knowledge of the location. Google tends to have it almost immediately, presumably because Google provides tools for the business owners to enter the information directly. But Apple's knowledge can lag behind by a few weeks, or more for more obscure things. This is presumably due to their dependence on third-party data providers like Yelp.
jakecopp 8y ago
What if Apple replaced their maps with Mapbox, which uses OpenStreetMap data? Apple does use OpenStreetMap data but they barely update it.
- dx034 8y ago
  Isn't VW involved in here? They have pretty good maps.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Volkswagen Group / Volkswagen AG are using Here (formerly known as Nokia Here): "On 3 August 2015, Nokia announced that it had reached a deal to sell its Here digital maps division to a consortium of three German automakers—BMW, Daimler AG, and Volkswagen Group, for €2.8 billion" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group
- 05 8y ago
  Current OSM data license is ODBL 1.0 [1], I think Apple would have a problem with having to share modifications they made to the data (especially if they merge in data from commercial sources). Share-Alike: If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted database under the ODbL. [1] https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/ https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/
dwaite 8y ago
In what way have they not "figured out" maps? It isn't a defective product, Google just has more user features (partly because they monetize location data, partly because they monetize priority display of businesses, and partly because they were around 8 years longer)
- bromuro 8y ago
  Apple Maps are so defective that they are completely useless.
  - ollie87 8y ago
    I disagree, during the odd time I've worked Amazon Flex Apple Maps has saved me. It was more up to date than the crap Amazon use and was more up to date than Google Maps.
    - jacksmith21006 8y ago
      The issue is Apple Maps is still far behind Google Maps. It is far behind Waze. It is not close and the gap grows. I am old and been an Apple fan for a very long time. So I just do not get when it became acceptable at Apple to have poor products? They use to strive to provide the best and most importantly the best user experience. If I can say take me to X and my mapping takes me to X that is the ideal user experience. Versus with Apple I say take me to X and it wants to take me to Y which is 300 miles away! Saying take me to X and it tells me that it will be closed before I get there is a far better user experience. And please do not tell me it is because of no access to data. Read their privacy agreement. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ For some odd reason it is now acceptable and even defended for Apple to provide poor products. Now if they do self driving vehicles and they kill people are we going to say well it is good enough? Or say well that is because they do not have data? Here is a great site that lays out how Apple Maps is NOT closing the gap but instead the gap is growing. Why on earth does this not bother Apple? https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/
mrep 8y ago
> at least let us use Google maps with Car Play? This pissed me off so much it drove me to getting a pixel 2 so I could use google maps with android auto and I am 100% happy with the decision. I tried the htc one and samsung galaxy s2 a few years ago but found them clunky and slow so i switch back to the iphone. The pixel 2 though is just as quick and intuitive as my iphone was except now I get first rate support for google services. I totally recommend you try it out. Edit: I just got a call on my pixel 2 and it said it was a suspected spammer so i ignored and unsurprisingly it left some foreign language voicemail. Thinking about it now, I'm surprised that is the first spam call I have received since switching 2 weeks ago as I use to get those usually every day on my iphone. So extra bonus for those that hate spam calls, it looks like the pixel 2 does some pretty good spam filtering for you.
- r00fus 8y ago
  Not sure which carrier you have but Tmobile has spam protection for free. I get about 1 call a day from "unknown" which I ignore, most other spams are flagged.

abritinthebay 8y ago

Apple Maps has been better than Google Maps for me (especially UI wise) for several years now. Siri may not be perfect but she’s pretty darn good and, frankly, the only trustworthy assistant on the market.

guidedlight 8y ago
Google Assistant is more capable than Siri. Apple has lost a lot of ground.
- icanhackit 8y ago
  True for now, but WWDC in June might tell a different story.
  - cozzyd 8y ago
    Yeah, they can enlist VW's help in story telling.
  - pier25 8y ago
    I siriously doubt it.
    - icanhackit 8y ago
      I was responding to the "Apple has lost a lot of ground" part, I'm not suggesting Apple will overtake Google with their assistant. I should have quoted the original text.
      - pier25 8y ago
        Oh, right. Thanks for making that clear.
- threeseed 8y ago
  And until Apple abandons their position on privacy as well as builds their own search engine/advertising platform they will forever struggle with Google. For better or worse that's the road Apple chose.
  - bobsil1 8y ago
    More likely Google/FB's surveillance model gets incrementally banned.
    - fiblye 8y ago
      It might end up superficially banned in the EU or something, but their data collection is just too valuable to America, China, and Europe's governments to actually forbid.
  - taurath 8y ago
    And that’s why I’m on their platform despite the drawbacks.
    - jacksmith21006 8y ago
      Sounds like you might want to actually read the Apple privacy agreement. Here is a copy for you. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ Think you might be surprised of what data Apple is able to collect. The one that most bothers me is quoted here. "When you share your content with family and friends using Apple products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to participate in Apple services or forums, Apple may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number. " Apple is great at marketing but was hoping we could have a discussion on reality.
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    That is NOT true. Here in the US is the Apple privacy agreement. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ Apple has access to all the same data. Plus Apple even takes the right to collect data on people you interact with. I quote "When you share your content with family and friends using Apple products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to participate in Apple services or forums, Apple may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number. Apple will use such information to fulfill your requests, provide the relevant product or service, or for anti-fraud purposes." Wish we could end this narrative that is just not true. Heck Apple told the TV networks they would share your viewing data on the Apple TV. "Apple TV service will share viewing data with networks, report claims" http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-tv-service-will-share-viewing-data-with-networks-report-claims-2933925 http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/apple-tv-service-will-sha... Google will target ads in some cases but they are not giving your data away to a third party. Plus Apple handing over all their users data in China has to be the biggest privacy betrayal example with any big tech company in the US. Have we ever had anything else like it? "Campaign targets Apple over privacy betrayal for Chinese iCloud users" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy-betrayal-for-chinese-icloud-users/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/03/apple-privacy... Ironically China gov was hacking Gmail accounts and Google instead chose to leave China. I get marketing but hope on HN we can use reality instead of marketing narratives.
nemonemo 8y ago
After reading this comment, I genuinely wondered in which aspects Apple Maps is better than Google Maps, since I've mostly used Google Maps for years. So I just opened up the Apple Maps and searched a few places, and it was surprisingly responsive. There are a few deficiencies, but I could see why Apple's map itself could be good enough for 90% of people. IMO, navigation is a different story. I think navigation is one area where the up-to-date accurate information matters, and it seems Google has advantages in this part, thanks to Waze and its massive geo data. Also, Apple navigation UI really needs some critical improvements, like first-person perspective.
- mantas 8y ago
  TBH Google navigation sucks in recent years. No, I'm not going to take dirt road shortcut while driving on highways is supposed to be 10min longer. If locals speed on that dirt road in their AWD vehicles, that doesn't mean I'll do 70km/h on unknown dirt road in a small FWD car. It got to the point that I'm double-checking all Gmaps directions on other services. And if I know area well enough, I don't need Gmaps at all..
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    Used Google Maps all across Europe not long ago on holiday and just amazed how well it works. Kids would try with Apple Maps and mostly we would end up laughing as it directed us to some crazy place that Google Maps would get on the first try. But my issue is the bigger picture. I just do not get why it is acceptable at Apple to provide a poor user experience with Siri and Apple Maps compared to competitors?
    - mantas 8y ago
      Incidentally, I am in Europe. Apple was laughably bad a couple years ago, but it's getting better. Although still not as good as Google. But now Apple conservative routing sometimes is better than Google's too opportunistic one. Another problem is Google still can't get house numbering correctly. They just don't care and get be off by 0.5km in some developments. What is worst, they don't tell they don't know exact location. They pretend to guesstimate it and sometimes it goes really wrong. Sometimes their guesstimation messes up the address itself too. For example, recently I was looking for XYZ square #123. They routed me to XYZ street #123 instead. Which was in a different neighbourhood. All in all, neither Google nor Apple beats old good Garmin and local mapping with UI brought straight from early 00s. Both Apple and Google and care about smaller markets or less visited locations. If 90% of their customers are happy 90% of time, I guess that's enough for them :/
veidr 8y ago
> pretty darn good Compared to what? A cat? Siri is worst-of-class technology in terms of voice-based assistant. I carry both Apple's latest phone and Google's latest phone, and it would never occur to me to use Siri for a voice task other than "set timer" (so it buzzes on my watch too). It's true that Apple is the only company playing this game that I might trust with an in-home always-connected assistant appliance like HomePod/Alexa/Google-whatever, but since Siri utterly sucks, I do not.
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  Completely agree and have a tough time understanding how anyone could push back? Yet you are down voted? I do not get why it is acceptable now for Apple to provide an inferior user experience? Why do people defend it? If people really need it broken down here is a great link. https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ On Siri it seems like people finally agree that Siri is horrible compared to the Google Assistant. Also why acceptable? This is about self driving cars. Apple cars kill people will that also be acceptable? Why?

saimiam 8y ago

Jesus, this is such a dumbass comment. It’s exactly how people in India feel when some redditor starts shitting on us for rape when the topic is the space race. Why don’t you fix your attitude instead of telling Apple Maps to go fix itself?

threeseed 8y ago

I don't think have any idea how any of this really works. The issue that Apple has with Maps and Siri is lack of data. They simply don't have all of the street view or POI data which allows them to accurately identify businesses or identify gaps in mapping data. Likewise for Siri they don't have access to Google's Knowledge Graph and Apple's position on privacy limits what personal data is available. None of this is a reflection on Apple's abilities in Data Science in which they've done some outstanding work on with (a) differential privacy with iOS and (b) FaceID. And just because the Maps and Siri teams have issues of there own doesn't mean Apple has to stop everything they are doing until it is fixed. They can walk and chew gum at the same time.

dangero 8y ago
How does Siri have a lack of data? They send all Siri requests to their servers. They have it all. It's not a data problem with Siri, and to excuse Apple Maps after all these years --- come on, they have unlimited budget. There is no excuse at all. If this is the outcome after all this time they should have never made maps at all. I'm an Apple fan and I'm saying this.
- jakobegger 8y ago
  In my experience, there’s no problem with data about roads, routing etc in Apple Maps. That stuff works well, and in some cases even better than Google (Google Maps makes hilarious mispronunciations for German names that sometimes make it hard to follow voice instructions). Where Apple fails miserably is search, and local place names. Apple Maps data will often show results in a different country instead of whatever I meant to search for in my city. Trying to find businesses if you don’t know the full official names is practically impossible. Apple Maps works great if you know the official address, but it’s pretty much useless for anything else.
  - Reason077 8y ago
    The Apple Maps location search experience has improved hugely in the last several years, at least here in the UK. It's still not quite up there with Google Map's location knowledge, but it's certainly not the often-innacurate mess it once was. The big difference I see now days comes down to how quickly the data is updated. To test this, take a newly opened (or closed) restaurant or store and compare Apple and Google's knowledge of the location. Google tends to have it almost immediately, presumably because Google provides tools for the business owners to enter the information directly. But Apple's knowledge can lag behind by a few weeks, or more for more obscure things. This is presumably due to their dependence on third-party data providers like Yelp.

jakecopp 8y ago

What if Apple replaced their maps with Mapbox, which uses OpenStreetMap data? Apple does use OpenStreetMap data but they barely update it.

dx034 8y ago
Isn't VW involved in here? They have pretty good maps.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Volkswagen Group / Volkswagen AG are using Here (formerly known as Nokia Here): "On 3 August 2015, Nokia announced that it had reached a deal to sell its Here digital maps division to a consortium of three German automakers—BMW, Daimler AG, and Volkswagen Group, for €2.8 billion" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group
05 8y ago
Current OSM data license is ODBL 1.0 [1], I think Apple would have a problem with having to share modifications they made to the data (especially if they merge in data from commercial sources). Share-Alike: If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted database under the ODbL. [1] https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/ https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/

dwaite 8y ago

In what way have they not "figured out" maps? It isn't a defective product, Google just has more user features (partly because they monetize location data, partly because they monetize priority display of businesses, and partly because they were around 8 years longer)

bromuro 8y ago
Apple Maps are so defective that they are completely useless.
- ollie87 8y ago
  I disagree, during the odd time I've worked Amazon Flex Apple Maps has saved me. It was more up to date than the crap Amazon use and was more up to date than Google Maps.
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    The issue is Apple Maps is still far behind Google Maps. It is far behind Waze. It is not close and the gap grows. I am old and been an Apple fan for a very long time. So I just do not get when it became acceptable at Apple to have poor products? They use to strive to provide the best and most importantly the best user experience. If I can say take me to X and my mapping takes me to X that is the ideal user experience. Versus with Apple I say take me to X and it wants to take me to Y which is 300 miles away! Saying take me to X and it tells me that it will be closed before I get there is a far better user experience. And please do not tell me it is because of no access to data. Read their privacy agreement. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/en-ww/ For some odd reason it is now acceptable and even defended for Apple to provide poor products. Now if they do self driving vehicles and they kill people are we going to say well it is good enough? Or say well that is because they do not have data? Here is a great site that lays out how Apple Maps is NOT closing the gap but instead the gap is growing. Why on earth does this not bother Apple? https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/

mrep 8y ago

> at least let us use Google maps with Car Play? This pissed me off so much it drove me to getting a pixel 2 so I could use google maps with android auto and I am 100% happy with the decision. I tried the htc one and samsung galaxy s2 a few years ago but found them clunky and slow so i switch back to the iphone. The pixel 2 though is just as quick and intuitive as my iphone was except now I get first rate support for google services. I totally recommend you try it out. Edit: I just got a call on my pixel 2 and it said it was a suspected spammer so i ignored and unsurprisingly it left some foreign language voicemail. Thinking about it now, I'm surprised that is the first spam call I have received since switching 2 weeks ago as I use to get those usually every day on my iphone. So extra bonus for those that hate spam calls, it looks like the pixel 2 does some pretty good spam filtering for you.

r00fus 8y ago
Not sure which carrier you have but Tmobile has spam protection for free. I get about 1 call a day from "unknown" which I ignore, most other spams are flagged.