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Because we have an entire legal framework with centuries of precedent. Just about every law and regulation gives just a maximum penalty without countless cases

Because we have an entire legal framework with centuries of precedent. Just about every law and regulation gives just a maximum penalty without countless cases of those being used to hobble foreign competitors. See also the answer to when you asked 17 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005603

downandout 8y ago
Since we are beating dead horses, I will again repeat that nothing stated in the GDPR requires warnings or requires that fines not be very large. Is it, or is it not, legally possible for a regulator to seek fines against you under GDPR without first issuing a warning? Please link to the specific law that exists outside the GDPR that requires such warnings. It has to be written somewhere...you (and other fans of GDPR) keep making this argument, so such a law must exist. The "answer" you linked to was just more of the same stuff you keep spouting, not a written law. If I can see such a law in the "old and large legal framework" you GDPR fans keep referring to that is somehow supposed to protect us from abuses, I'll happily admit that I'm wrong.
- oldcynic 8y ago
  I think, though I could be mistaken, that it originates from German law. The UK had a very similar requirement established in case law. Nonetheless the EU views proportionality as a central principle enshrined in Article 49 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights [0]. "The severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence" You're no doubt going to tell me that's far too vague and woolly. So this link might give you a flavour of how EU fundamental principles[1] came about from a bunch of centuries old separate national legal systems: http://blogs.northampton.ac.uk/law/2015/11/02/proportionality-%E2%80%93-an-increasingly-important-principle-of-eu-law/ http://blogs.northampton.ac.uk/law/2015/11/02/proportionalit... Just a random result on first page - there may be better or more easily readable sources. That proportionality applies to everything in EU law, and there have been numerous cases through the courts, national Judicial Review, and taking cases to the EU Courts of Justice. The principle is firmly enshrined. As with anything human mistakes are made, so of course there are appeals from time to time. That's how case law gets made. [0] http://fra.europa.eu/en/charterpedia/article/49-principles-legality-and-proportionality-criminal-offences-and-penalties http://fra.europa.eu/en/charterpedia/article/49-principles-l... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_principles_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_principles_of_European...
  - downandout 8y ago
    That proportionality applies to everything in EU law Again the problem is that this is in the eye of the beholder. With 20 million euro maximum fines, it would be easy to say that 100k euros is proportional for the lowest levels of offenses - after all, its only 0.5% of the maximum. But that would still kill most small businesses. Regardless, it’s pointless to argue since GDPR is here in about 36 hours, and we will all get to witness its wrath - hopefully from the sidelines. I think that within a year, most US based websites will have closed their doors to EU residents, which may be the worst aspect of this for both the EU and the US. It’s sad, but nobody - even sites with the best of intentions - can take on the liability of potential 20M euro fines, regardless of what you say the odds are of those actually being handed out.
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      Proportionate for both. Destroying a small or micro business clearly isn't proportionate. Again firmly established in CJEU case law from previous businesses within the EU who have been hit with too severe a fine for some breach of EU law. > I think that within a year, most US based websites will have closed their doors to EU residents I would be astonished if that is the case. If it shuts out those not willing to play nicer with data and privacy - great! Even if that ultimately includes Facebook. Every small business within the EU is adopting this "potential liability" without any signs of a rush to relocate outside the EU or shutting down.

downandout 8y ago

Since we are beating dead horses, I will again repeat that nothing stated in the GDPR requires warnings or requires that fines not be very large. Is it, or is it not, legally possible for a regulator to seek fines against you under GDPR without first issuing a warning? Please link to the specific law that exists outside the GDPR that requires such warnings. It has to be written somewhere...you (and other fans of GDPR) keep making this argument, so such a law must exist. The "answer" you linked to was just more of the same stuff you keep spouting, not a written law. If I can see such a law in the "old and large legal framework" you GDPR fans keep referring to that is somehow supposed to protect us from abuses, I'll happily admit that I'm wrong.

oldcynic 8y ago
I think, though I could be mistaken, that it originates from German law. The UK had a very similar requirement established in case law. Nonetheless the EU views proportionality as a central principle enshrined in Article 49 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights [0]. "The severity of penalties must not be disproportionate to the criminal offence" You're no doubt going to tell me that's far too vague and woolly. So this link might give you a flavour of how EU fundamental principles[1] came about from a bunch of centuries old separate national legal systems: http://blogs.northampton.ac.uk/law/2015/11/02/proportionality-%E2%80%93-an-increasingly-important-principle-of-eu-law/ http://blogs.northampton.ac.uk/law/2015/11/02/proportionalit... Just a random result on first page - there may be better or more easily readable sources. That proportionality applies to everything in EU law, and there have been numerous cases through the courts, national Judicial Review, and taking cases to the EU Courts of Justice. The principle is firmly enshrined. As with anything human mistakes are made, so of course there are appeals from time to time. That's how case law gets made. [0] http://fra.europa.eu/en/charterpedia/article/49-principles-legality-and-proportionality-criminal-offences-and-penalties http://fra.europa.eu/en/charterpedia/article/49-principles-l... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_principles_of_European_Union_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_principles_of_European...
- downandout 8y ago
  That proportionality applies to everything in EU law Again the problem is that this is in the eye of the beholder. With 20 million euro maximum fines, it would be easy to say that 100k euros is proportional for the lowest levels of offenses - after all, its only 0.5% of the maximum. But that would still kill most small businesses. Regardless, it’s pointless to argue since GDPR is here in about 36 hours, and we will all get to witness its wrath - hopefully from the sidelines. I think that within a year, most US based websites will have closed their doors to EU residents, which may be the worst aspect of this for both the EU and the US. It’s sad, but nobody - even sites with the best of intentions - can take on the liability of potential 20M euro fines, regardless of what you say the odds are of those actually being handed out.
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    Proportionate for both. Destroying a small or micro business clearly isn't proportionate. Again firmly established in CJEU case law from previous businesses within the EU who have been hit with too severe a fine for some breach of EU law. > I think that within a year, most US based websites will have closed their doors to EU residents I would be astonished if that is the case. If it shuts out those not willing to play nicer with data and privacy - great! Even if that ultimately includes Facebook. Every small business within the EU is adopting this "potential liability" without any signs of a rush to relocate outside the EU or shutting down.