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>Why is ":" problematic exactly? It's more concise. Anyone, including non-java programmers, can make an educated guess at what the "extends" keyword does to a

>Why is ":" problematic exactly? It's more concise. Anyone, including non-java programmers, can make an educated guess at what the "extends" keyword does to a java class. The colon operator is contextless. Unless someone tells you or you've coded in c++/c#, you can't know for sure what it means without googling it. Here's a case in point, my biggest bugbear with the nim documentation. When you first see nim code, you're gonna see the '@' operator pretty much immediately. You're going to wonder what it does, and google "nim @ operator". You'll then remember that googling symbols doesn't work very well, and google "nim at-symbol operator". Sooner or later, you'll find your way here: https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#lexical-analysis-operators https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#lexical-analysis-opera... The nim documentation helpfully says "Yes, the @ symbol is an operator". So what does the @ operator do? It's a mystery, go fuck yourself, errr I mean figure it out for yourself! If you ignore the mystery and move on with your learning you'll come back to it via the key word "seq" within about 10 minutes, but there's no easy way to search for it if you don't know that, and by the way what a frivolous waste of time. Shorthand symbols are worth having, but they should be used only in cases where the coding speed benefit outweighs the readability loss. If you had to write "extends" in kotlin instead of use a colon, how often would you be doing it? If it's more infrequent than once every 2 minutes I would argue that "extends" is better because it's in natural language, and thus easier on average for new kotlin developers to understand /regardless of background/.

V-2 8y ago
"If you had to write "extends" in kotlin instead of use a colon, how often would you be doing it?" Certainly more often than you'll need someone to tell you what ":" in a class declaration does ;) I see your point, I just don't think this language trait deserves to rank as "confusing" for a professional programmer. While we're at it, Kotlin, unlike Java, provides explicit "constructor" and "init" keywords. So if it loses points for the lack of "extends", why doesn't Java for not having these? Nim's manual doesn't seem helpful indeed (they acknowledge it openly in the beginning), but I feel this is sort of beyond the point. Kotlin's docs are very clear and exhaustive. Case in point - as we discussed inheritance declarations - https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/classes.html https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/classes.html
- Sir_Substance 8y ago
  >So if it loses points for the lack of "extends", why doesn't Java for not having these? No one said it didn't :) In general, I personally prefer my languages explicit for a variety of reasons. There's a balance for sure, and one can go too far the other way. For example, I find Rust to be a shade too unwieldy for my optimum preferences, although I would overlook that to gain the safety benefits if I had the right use case.
jhall1468 8y ago
> The colon operator is contextless It has a type after. Always. Even assuming that's not enough for it to click, that Google search took all of 3 seconds and you are now typing ":" over "extends" thousands upon thousands of times. If you honestly thing one of those takes more time than the other, you haven't really thought this through. This is a silly argument.
- Sir_Substance 8y ago
  >and you are now typing ":" over "extends" thousands upon thousands of times That's blatant hyperbole, and also a worthless argument. How many times have you typed "int"? Should we replace it with a symbol? Maybe go back to space-cadet keyboards[1]? J is a language built around symbols for maximum programming speed. It's not an esolang, it's real and usable, and recently updated. Here's a very simple J function: result=: {&((65 97+/~i.2 13) |.@[} i.256)&.(a.&i.) Very efficient, minimum keystrokes. Can you tell me what it does? Fundamentally, programming languages are for people, not computers. Otherwise, we'd all be coding in assembly. Keystrokes are /not/ the expensive or dangerous part of programming, we shouldn't be optimising our languages to reduce them. Optimising languages to reduce miscomprehension is the future, that's where expensive developer time and business risk is concentrated. Preferring to type a colon instead of the word "extends" is, bluntly, the sort of thing you solve with a custom autohotkeys file. In any case, it's a minimal gain either way with the : operator, that kind of decision won't make or break any language. But this is the internet and if we're going to argue over something so trivial, I'm going to argue that on the most nitpicky level, "extends" is clearly a better choince than ":". [1] Space-cadet keyboards are really cool
  - V-2 8y ago
    "result=: {&((65 97+/~i.2 13) |.@[} i.256)&.(a.&i.) Very efficient, minimum keystrokes. Can you tell me what it does?" Well; can you tell me what this means? :) https://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/20000/velka/simplified-chinese-sign-1310616900xnc.jpg https://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/20000/velka/si... Obviously there are extremes on both sides of this spectrum... It's subjective where the perfect compromise between being explicit and being concise lies. Some languages value the former more (like Pascal or Python...), others are more terse. It's always a trade-off. "Fundamentally, programming languages are for people, not computers" Of course, but that doesn't mean the correlation here is as simple as "the more verbose, the better". Otherwise than you imply, verbosity does have its own inherent cost too. It increases the cognitive load on the reader, who now needs to process more text to the same effect, as the meaning-to-text ratio drops. "Keystrokes are /not/ the expensive or dangerous part of programming, we shouldn't be optimising our languages to reduce them" It's not about keystrokes though, since code is read much more often than written. Every piece of code written once will be read several times eventually. So would you prefer eg. begin..end to curly braces? Would you prefer "AND" to "&"? Even wordy language such as Java have been heavily optimized to save space. It's obviously subjective, but the programming community "votes with their feet", and if you look eg. at the "most loved languages" StackOverflow poll - https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#technology-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted-languages https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#technology-m... - it doesn't make an impression like wordiness is what people are after in a programming language.

V-2 8y ago

"If you had to write "extends" in kotlin instead of use a colon, how often would you be doing it?" Certainly more often than you'll need someone to tell you what ":" in a class declaration does ;) I see your point, I just don't think this language trait deserves to rank as "confusing" for a professional programmer. While we're at it, Kotlin, unlike Java, provides explicit "constructor" and "init" keywords. So if it loses points for the lack of "extends", why doesn't Java for not having these? Nim's manual doesn't seem helpful indeed (they acknowledge it openly in the beginning), but I feel this is sort of beyond the point. Kotlin's docs are very clear and exhaustive. Case in point - as we discussed inheritance declarations - https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/classes.html https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/classes.html

Sir_Substance 8y ago
>So if it loses points for the lack of "extends", why doesn't Java for not having these? No one said it didn't :) In general, I personally prefer my languages explicit for a variety of reasons. There's a balance for sure, and one can go too far the other way. For example, I find Rust to be a shade too unwieldy for my optimum preferences, although I would overlook that to gain the safety benefits if I had the right use case.

jhall1468 8y ago

> The colon operator is contextless It has a type after. Always. Even assuming that's not enough for it to click, that Google search took all of 3 seconds and you are now typing ":" over "extends" thousands upon thousands of times. If you honestly thing one of those takes more time than the other, you haven't really thought this through. This is a silly argument.

Sir_Substance 8y ago
>and you are now typing ":" over "extends" thousands upon thousands of times That's blatant hyperbole, and also a worthless argument. How many times have you typed "int"? Should we replace it with a symbol? Maybe go back to space-cadet keyboards[1]? J is a language built around symbols for maximum programming speed. It's not an esolang, it's real and usable, and recently updated. Here's a very simple J function: result=: {&((65 97+/~i.2 13) |.@[} i.256)&.(a.&i.) Very efficient, minimum keystrokes. Can you tell me what it does? Fundamentally, programming languages are for people, not computers. Otherwise, we'd all be coding in assembly. Keystrokes are /not/ the expensive or dangerous part of programming, we shouldn't be optimising our languages to reduce them. Optimising languages to reduce miscomprehension is the future, that's where expensive developer time and business risk is concentrated. Preferring to type a colon instead of the word "extends" is, bluntly, the sort of thing you solve with a custom autohotkeys file. In any case, it's a minimal gain either way with the : operator, that kind of decision won't make or break any language. But this is the internet and if we're going to argue over something so trivial, I'm going to argue that on the most nitpicky level, "extends" is clearly a better choince than ":". [1] Space-cadet keyboards are really cool
- V-2 8y ago
  "result=: {&((65 97+/~i.2 13) |.@[} i.256)&.(a.&i.) Very efficient, minimum keystrokes. Can you tell me what it does?" Well; can you tell me what this means? :) https://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/20000/velka/simplified-chinese-sign-1310616900xnc.jpg https://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/20000/velka/si... Obviously there are extremes on both sides of this spectrum... It's subjective where the perfect compromise between being explicit and being concise lies. Some languages value the former more (like Pascal or Python...), others are more terse. It's always a trade-off. "Fundamentally, programming languages are for people, not computers" Of course, but that doesn't mean the correlation here is as simple as "the more verbose, the better". Otherwise than you imply, verbosity does have its own inherent cost too. It increases the cognitive load on the reader, who now needs to process more text to the same effect, as the meaning-to-text ratio drops. "Keystrokes are /not/ the expensive or dangerous part of programming, we shouldn't be optimising our languages to reduce them" It's not about keystrokes though, since code is read much more often than written. Every piece of code written once will be read several times eventually. So would you prefer eg. begin..end to curly braces? Would you prefer "AND" to "&"? Even wordy language such as Java have been heavily optimized to save space. It's obviously subjective, but the programming community "votes with their feet", and if you look eg. at the "most loved languages" StackOverflow poll - https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#technology-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted-languages https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#technology-m... - it doesn't make an impression like wordiness is what people are after in a programming language.