4 ms·

>how can the market exploitation of civic, social, and leisure spaces possibly be averted What? The ominous "market" isn't forcing its way into any of these sp

>how can the market exploitation of civic, social, and leisure spaces possibly be averted What? The ominous "market" isn't forcing its way into any of these spaces. You let it in. You bought that game with micro-transactions, you signed up for that "free" social media app that was "secretly stealing your data". What shall we do? Our economic system isn't doing what we think it should! Could it be that we don't understand it and we should educate people so that they can't be taken advantage of? No! It's the system that's wrong! Towards the end of the article the author starts talking about UBI and just after that mentioning a scheme for the government to employ all workers. I should have guessed that would be the endgame. Two completely unproven ideas suggested as the panacea to market forces the author doesn't understand. Why does it that every time I see someone refer to something as "Social Democracy" they are merely using it as a euphemism for Socialism or Communism?

germinalphrase 8y ago
Are you not concerned that while some of these costs may not be entirely hidden - they are very often intentionally obfuscated? It's not exactly analogous to "people should know to avoid credit cards with 20% interest rates" as that interest rate must be openly communicated to the consumer while the collection and sale of my personal data has no such requirement.
- lr4444lr 8y ago
  Hidden terms in a credit card agreement are not the same concept as voluntarily confirming and paying for a video game in-game purchase. Or what is it that you're saying is hidden in video games?
  - marnett 8y ago
    Micro transactions allow some "video games" (I use quotes as it seems to mostly be mobile apps) to play nearly identically to machines you'd find within a casino. We regulate those casinos due to the known addiction of gambling - some applications employ the same psychological tactics that result in gambling addiction, and they sit right there on your phone; a phone that is constantly with you, and constantly sending push notifications to convince you to take another hit.
- dcosson 8y ago
  What? If I sign up for a new credit card I won't come across the interest rate at all until I get to the fine-print legal contract. Sure, maybe it's in bold or something there, but it's still not upfront and obvious in the signup flow like the perks are. Similarly, the ways in which a site will use your data is hidden within the thousands of words of fine print in their privacy policy. Seems exactly the same to me.
  - abiox 8y ago
    > If I sign up for a new credit card I won't come across the interest rate at all until I get to the fine-print legal contract. my experience has been different (in TX, USA). having modestly improved my credit score (at least, i assume this is the reason), as well as registering a LLC, i've been getting a deluge of offers for personal and business cards. every distinct one i've looked at was pretty clear about the apr and fees. i mean, i suppose you could miss these things if you really don't care too look, but i haven't seen anything be obfuscated at all (at least wrt to apr). doesn't really seem fine-printy.
- zrobotics 8y ago
  I would argue that with the prevalence of reviews on steam /youtube/etc that it is far easier than ever to avoid undesirable games. In fact, it's stupidly easy to avoid even bad games, I don't think I've bought a game I didn't enjoy in several years. Sure, not everyone will read & comprehend a credit card agreement, but surely it's fairly easy to Google a game review before purchase.
marnett 8y ago
At its simplest, if there is still private property it is not and cannot be socialism or communism. Scandinavian countries are social democracies - UBI, universal healthcare, guaranteed labor, etc are social democratic ideals. Please don't criticize the author for lacking understanding you also lack. > we should educate people so that they can't be taken advantage of? No! It's the system that's wrong! We are a capitalist country. Education is a part of 'the system.'
- wuliwong 8y ago
  You just doubled down on "criticizing for the lack of understanding you also lack"!
wpietri 8y ago
This perspective isn't wrong but it isn't complete. Blaming the user is common, and so is blaming the purchaser. From that individual's perspective, sure, they could exercise more control by being more careful. Who could be against personal responsibility? But what it leaves out is systemic effects and power imbalances. For example, if I were running a Ponzi scheme I could plow a lot of "investment" money back into marketing, having many skilled professionals create the appearance of respectability, of safety. I could create entire front organizations, or bribe trusted recommenders. Would my investors still be responsible for losing money? Sure. But the fact that I can use power to manipulate my investors' decisions means that it isn't a fair fight. So I would still be responsible for taking their money. And society would be responsible for permitting a fraud to continue deceiving individuals. Responsibility isn't zero sum.
- sincerely 8y ago
  Agreed. If we (humans) had reliable personal responsibility, grocery stores wouldn't put candy bars and tabloids near the checkout lanes and advertising would be much less effective.

germinalphrase 8y ago

Are you not concerned that while some of these costs may not be entirely hidden - they are very often intentionally obfuscated? It's not exactly analogous to "people should know to avoid credit cards with 20% interest rates" as that interest rate must be openly communicated to the consumer while the collection and sale of my personal data has no such requirement.

lr4444lr 8y ago
Hidden terms in a credit card agreement are not the same concept as voluntarily confirming and paying for a video game in-game purchase. Or what is it that you're saying is hidden in video games?
- marnett 8y ago
  Micro transactions allow some "video games" (I use quotes as it seems to mostly be mobile apps) to play nearly identically to machines you'd find within a casino. We regulate those casinos due to the known addiction of gambling - some applications employ the same psychological tactics that result in gambling addiction, and they sit right there on your phone; a phone that is constantly with you, and constantly sending push notifications to convince you to take another hit.
dcosson 8y ago
What? If I sign up for a new credit card I won't come across the interest rate at all until I get to the fine-print legal contract. Sure, maybe it's in bold or something there, but it's still not upfront and obvious in the signup flow like the perks are. Similarly, the ways in which a site will use your data is hidden within the thousands of words of fine print in their privacy policy. Seems exactly the same to me.
- abiox 8y ago
  > If I sign up for a new credit card I won't come across the interest rate at all until I get to the fine-print legal contract. my experience has been different (in TX, USA). having modestly improved my credit score (at least, i assume this is the reason), as well as registering a LLC, i've been getting a deluge of offers for personal and business cards. every distinct one i've looked at was pretty clear about the apr and fees. i mean, i suppose you could miss these things if you really don't care too look, but i haven't seen anything be obfuscated at all (at least wrt to apr). doesn't really seem fine-printy.
zrobotics 8y ago
I would argue that with the prevalence of reviews on steam /youtube/etc that it is far easier than ever to avoid undesirable games. In fact, it's stupidly easy to avoid even bad games, I don't think I've bought a game I didn't enjoy in several years. Sure, not everyone will read & comprehend a credit card agreement, but surely it's fairly easy to Google a game review before purchase.

marnett 8y ago

At its simplest, if there is still private property it is not and cannot be socialism or communism. Scandinavian countries are social democracies - UBI, universal healthcare, guaranteed labor, etc are social democratic ideals. Please don't criticize the author for lacking understanding you also lack. > we should educate people so that they can't be taken advantage of? No! It's the system that's wrong! We are a capitalist country. Education is a part of 'the system.'

wuliwong 8y ago
You just doubled down on "criticizing for the lack of understanding you also lack"!

wpietri 8y ago

This perspective isn't wrong but it isn't complete. Blaming the user is common, and so is blaming the purchaser. From that individual's perspective, sure, they could exercise more control by being more careful. Who could be against personal responsibility? But what it leaves out is systemic effects and power imbalances. For example, if I were running a Ponzi scheme I could plow a lot of "investment" money back into marketing, having many skilled professionals create the appearance of respectability, of safety. I could create entire front organizations, or bribe trusted recommenders. Would my investors still be responsible for losing money? Sure. But the fact that I can use power to manipulate my investors' decisions means that it isn't a fair fight. So I would still be responsible for taking their money. And society would be responsible for permitting a fraud to continue deceiving individuals. Responsibility isn't zero sum.

sincerely 8y ago
Agreed. If we (humans) had reliable personal responsibility, grocery stores wouldn't put candy bars and tabloids near the checkout lanes and advertising would be much less effective.