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The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on
by benkarst 8y ago
The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?
- runjake 8y agoCalm down. I believe the term has to do with age, and not race. It's a post-war (WW2) term that's been used for decades to describe Roth and certain other writers, such as Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Salinger, Bellow, Updike and others. It's a term to describe a group of certain authors that wrote about certain themes, similar to the Hollywood term "Brat Pack".
- msla 8y ago> I believe the term has to do with hair color, and not race. Was this dumb joke worth making the second line of your post? Anyway, it resonates with the "Great White Hunter" idea, which is even less acceptable today, and, to some extent, with the "Great White Whale" of Moby Dick. It's a simple fact about race, to a simple extent, and it's an expression that they were on top in a way no group will (should) ever be again.
- benkarst 8y agoSilly me, I didn't know "white" is a term that describes age.
- runjake 8y agoIt's often used (as in this case) a colloquial term alluding age via hair color (IOW, "white-haired" old people).
- VoodooJuJu 8y agoIt's not - the pendulum is beginning to swing in the other direction. People are starting to wise up to and reject these group identity narratives, as evidenced by the rising popularity of people like Jordan Peterson.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jessup 8y ago"Mailer, Updike, Roth-the Great Male Narcissists* who’ve dominated postwar realist fiction are now in their senescence, and it must seem to them no coincidence that the prospect of their own deaths appears backlit by the approaching millennium and on-line predictions of the death of the novel as we know it." David Foster Wallace (1997) http://observer.com/1997/10/john-updike-champion-literary-phallocrat-drops-one-is-this-finally-the-end-for-magnificent-narcissists/ http://observer.com/1997/10/john-updike-champion-literary-ph...
- benkarst 8y agoThe author of the article does not use "great white males" as a personal pronoun. Nor does the article you linked include any mention of race.
- danso 8y agoIf you read that 5 times over, maybe it's worth including more of the context of the phrase: > Mr. Roth was the last of the great white males: the triumvirate of writers — Saul Bellow and John Updike were the others — who towered over American letters in the second half of the 20th century. Seems that "great white males" refers to a specific trio of writers -- all white men -- who were seen as the giants of American literature in a specific era in history. What's your specific objection?
- benkarst 8y agoThat he used the term "great white males" when he should have used "Great Male Narcissists". Would a high school newspaper even make a mistake such as this? It's either sloppy, malicious, or both.
- gazarsgo 8y agoBoth terms seem equally redundant. Why stress?
- danso 8y agoSorry, I'm not following. Is "Great Male Narcissists" a popular pronoun in this context?
- benkarst 8y agohttps://www.dfwsociety.org/2017/12/02/call-for-papers-great-male-narcissists-panel-ala-2018/ https://www.dfwsociety.org/2017/12/02/call-for-papers-great-...
- danso 8y agoYou've linked to something associated with David Foster Wallace, but the author of the NYT obit is not David Foster Wallace.
- ams6110 8y agoIf someone referred to a "great black male" writer would you be equally offended? Or do you object to mention of his race? His sex? These details help paint a picture. They are not mentioned to offend.
- artpepper2 8y agoI think it's meant to be a pun on "great white whale" - there's an idea of the "Great American Novel" which is the mythical book standing at the apex of American literature. Moby-Dick is both a template for the Great American Novel and a convenient metaphor for authors who chase it. It's an old-fashioned way of thinking about the novel. And this may be a contentious statement, but: It's probably not a coincidence that the traditional contenders for "Great American Novelist" have tended to be white males. Roth, Bellow, Updike, but also Hemingway, Pynchon, Gaddis, etc. That doesn't detract from those authors' accomplishments. I think it says more about how the canon has evolved.