5 ms·

If you are in highly educated, able to work, and are in the right field (i.e. software), life for the majority of individuals who fall into this category is bet

If you are in highly educated, able to work, and are in the right field (i.e. software), life for the majority of individuals who fall into this category is better in the US than many other countries. On the other hand if you're dirt poor, have no education, bad health.... you may be better off in Scandinavia or Western Europe. This includes tech, engineering and other professions. For instance you can get a graduate mechanical engineering job and start earning ~$70k and live in an area where housing costs ~$150k-$200k for a small, detached, ~2-3 bedroom house with garage and garden (2.85x ratio). You can also get amazing weather :) Mechanical engineers in the UK start on ~£25k in areas where a small house will cost £300k-£400k. That's a ratio of pay to house price of 16x versus 2.9x in the US. Anecdotal I know but powerful.

gehwartzen 8y ago
You almost exactly described my life in Richmond, VA; Mechanical Eng. Grad making 80k/yr, in a detached 2br $210K house, great weather + 1.5hr drive from D.C., mountains, & beach :D I can't complain.
Balero 8y ago
Good pay and cheap housing is a pretty strong drawing force.
rayiner 8y ago
But you still have to live in a country where (1) a bunch of people don't have adequate public services; (2) a bunch of people don't want people in (1) to have adequate public services; (3) because of the threat of people in (1) possibly getting adequate public services, the people in (2) make the government completely dysfunctional; and (4) because they have PTSD from (3), the people aligned with the people in (1) also make the government completely dysfunctional. The people are nice but the society is acrimonious and divided, and it grates on you.
refurb 8y ago
That's why I moved to the US. If you're well educated and have good job prospects, many of the chief complaints about the US disappear. Sure, healthcare is still a huge pain in the ass, but you've got access (and ability to pay for) some of the best healthcare in the world. One of the big drivers is if your career is something you'd like to maximize. The opportunities here are some of the best in the world as is the compensation. If I had stayed in my home country I would have had pretty limited prospects even at the top of my game.
icantdrive55 8y ago
At least half the homeless I know were once Programmers. The party will end. It will be ugly. The few monopolies will just fire, and hire more lobbiests. Even when the ugliness happens; I still think most Americas will be too uninformed, brain washed to really demand change? Hell, the ugliness is already in play. As long as we can point to some other country that's worse, we seem content? Then again, the wealthy seem to have cultivated this--"Of hell--we're still better than the alternatives. You should be greatful!" BS.
arojn 8y ago
Scandinavia is, somewhat contrary to popular belief, great if you are upper-middle class. A similar life in the US would be prohibitively expensive. The problem is if you are middle class and paying for many system that you might not in effect be able to use.
- refurb 8y ago
  Can you expand on that? It's contrary to every example I've heard of.
  - novaRom 8y ago
    The largest tax burden is on the middle class. The upper-middle class has fixed social security taxation (it is growing up to a certain level) and large part of the capital is in different securities which are taxed differently (much lower than say income tax). At the same time, you have no need to pay extra costs for security, healthcare, roads, etc. more than average income people. Thus you enjoy overall good quality of life with no additional payments. My own opinion is that you will have better life quality in Scandinavia than in US independently on which income group you belong to, but some people may disagree. And don't underestimate the harsh climate - depression and bad mood is not as uncommon during the dark months.
    - refurb 8y ago
      I know a lot of this is subjective so two people could differ on which country is "better" and both could be right, but your first point about taxation is true in the US as well - capped social security taxes and lower tax rates on investment income. And for the rich, healthcare isn't much of an issue in the US. Either your employer pays most of the bill or you're so wealthy that $20k per year for your families insurance is a rounding error on your income.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- 8y ago
J-dawg 8y ago
That is indeed powerful, and goes to show how completely broken the housing situation in the UK is. It also goes to show how the advice from people like Mr. Money Mustache [0] actually works in the US. Even without large salary increases, the US engineer in your example could realistically pay off their $150-200k mortgage in <10 years by living reasonably frugally, and then get to work on building a hefty retirement fund. If they did get salary increases and/or had a partner earning money too, they could do it much faster. Am I missing some hidden cost, or is this actually quite common? [0] http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
- TuringNYC 8y ago
  Firstly - while there are plenty of places in the US to find houses with $150-200k mortgage there are rarely tech jobs on those locations (and the jobs that do exist in those locations dont pay the obscene salaries you hear of.) Of course there are always some exceptions (handful in Texas.) And if you get a job in some odd location, lose your job, good luck finding another one in the same down if you dont live in SF/SV/NYC. You'll also lose massive equity in the house you'll be fire-selling since sales fees/taxes/insurance/lawyers/inspections are ~7%+ all in. In the center of tech-job-land (SF/SV), you're looking at a $1M mortgage if you have a family you dont wish to raise in a 640sqft studio. Part of what you're paying for is the pool of jobs and easy availability of work. Secondly, I lived quite frugally in my early career. This is much harder 10yrs in...because those choices affect my children. What do I give up on? Braces? Health? Here in the US you get nickle and dimed on literally everything, and especially on healthcare. Finally, you are missing a major hidden cost -- risk. Numerous tech jobs can rarely survive 10yrs. Often, you find yourself out of work in the worse economy finding a new job when prevailing wages are depressed. Tech isnt like government, or teaching, or medicine -- there are harsh cycles. Worse, in those cycles, often your company stock/options are also worth farless/zero.
  - greedo 8y ago
    This completely understates the tech world outside of SF/SV/NYC. There are tons of tech jobs outside of these locations. And the pay differential isn't even close to compensating for the increased cost of living in the bubble cities. And sure, it can be tough to find a tech job that lasts 10+ years. But that's true of a lot of jobs. Tech jobs don't have to be in "tech" companies. Lots of businesses have tech jobs in house; insurance, healthcare, etc etc. Unless you have a burning desire to work for the FAANGs of the world, there's a billion tech jobs out there.

gehwartzen 8y ago

You almost exactly described my life in Richmond, VA; Mechanical Eng. Grad making 80k/yr, in a detached 2br $210K house, great weather + 1.5hr drive from D.C., mountains, & beach :D I can't complain.

Balero 8y ago

Good pay and cheap housing is a pretty strong drawing force.

rayiner 8y ago

But you still have to live in a country where (1) a bunch of people don't have adequate public services; (2) a bunch of people don't want people in (1) to have adequate public services; (3) because of the threat of people in (1) possibly getting adequate public services, the people in (2) make the government completely dysfunctional; and (4) because they have PTSD from (3), the people aligned with the people in (1) also make the government completely dysfunctional. The people are nice but the society is acrimonious and divided, and it grates on you.

refurb 8y ago

That's why I moved to the US. If you're well educated and have good job prospects, many of the chief complaints about the US disappear. Sure, healthcare is still a huge pain in the ass, but you've got access (and ability to pay for) some of the best healthcare in the world. One of the big drivers is if your career is something you'd like to maximize. The opportunities here are some of the best in the world as is the compensation. If I had stayed in my home country I would have had pretty limited prospects even at the top of my game.

icantdrive55 8y ago

At least half the homeless I know were once Programmers. The party will end. It will be ugly. The few monopolies will just fire, and hire more lobbiests. Even when the ugliness happens; I still think most Americas will be too uninformed, brain washed to really demand change? Hell, the ugliness is already in play. As long as we can point to some other country that's worse, we seem content? Then again, the wealthy seem to have cultivated this--"Of hell--we're still better than the alternatives. You should be greatful!" BS.

arojn 8y ago

Scandinavia is, somewhat contrary to popular belief, great if you are upper-middle class. A similar life in the US would be prohibitively expensive. The problem is if you are middle class and paying for many system that you might not in effect be able to use.

refurb 8y ago
Can you expand on that? It's contrary to every example I've heard of.
- novaRom 8y ago
  The largest tax burden is on the middle class. The upper-middle class has fixed social security taxation (it is growing up to a certain level) and large part of the capital is in different securities which are taxed differently (much lower than say income tax). At the same time, you have no need to pay extra costs for security, healthcare, roads, etc. more than average income people. Thus you enjoy overall good quality of life with no additional payments. My own opinion is that you will have better life quality in Scandinavia than in US independently on which income group you belong to, but some people may disagree. And don't underestimate the harsh climate - depression and bad mood is not as uncommon during the dark months.
  - refurb 8y ago
    I know a lot of this is subjective so two people could differ on which country is "better" and both could be right, but your first point about taxation is true in the US as well - capped social security taxes and lower tax rates on investment income. And for the rich, healthcare isn't much of an issue in the US. Either your employer pays most of the bill or you're so wealthy that $20k per year for your families insurance is a rounding error on your income.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
8y ago

J-dawg 8y ago

That is indeed powerful, and goes to show how completely broken the housing situation in the UK is. It also goes to show how the advice from people like Mr. Money Mustache [0] actually works in the US. Even without large salary increases, the US engineer in your example could realistically pay off their $150-200k mortgage in <10 years by living reasonably frugally, and then get to work on building a hefty retirement fund. If they did get salary increases and/or had a partner earning money too, they could do it much faster. Am I missing some hidden cost, or is this actually quite common? [0] http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

TuringNYC 8y ago
Firstly - while there are plenty of places in the US to find houses with $150-200k mortgage there are rarely tech jobs on those locations (and the jobs that do exist in those locations dont pay the obscene salaries you hear of.) Of course there are always some exceptions (handful in Texas.) And if you get a job in some odd location, lose your job, good luck finding another one in the same down if you dont live in SF/SV/NYC. You'll also lose massive equity in the house you'll be fire-selling since sales fees/taxes/insurance/lawyers/inspections are ~7%+ all in. In the center of tech-job-land (SF/SV), you're looking at a $1M mortgage if you have a family you dont wish to raise in a 640sqft studio. Part of what you're paying for is the pool of jobs and easy availability of work. Secondly, I lived quite frugally in my early career. This is much harder 10yrs in...because those choices affect my children. What do I give up on? Braces? Health? Here in the US you get nickle and dimed on literally everything, and especially on healthcare. Finally, you are missing a major hidden cost -- risk. Numerous tech jobs can rarely survive 10yrs. Often, you find yourself out of work in the worse economy finding a new job when prevailing wages are depressed. Tech isnt like government, or teaching, or medicine -- there are harsh cycles. Worse, in those cycles, often your company stock/options are also worth farless/zero.
- greedo 8y ago
  This completely understates the tech world outside of SF/SV/NYC. There are tons of tech jobs outside of these locations. And the pay differential isn't even close to compensating for the increased cost of living in the bubble cities. And sure, it can be tough to find a tech job that lasts 10+ years. But that's true of a lot of jobs. Tech jobs don't have to be in "tech" companies. Lots of businesses have tech jobs in house; insurance, healthcare, etc etc. Unless you have a burning desire to work for the FAANGs of the world, there's a billion tech jobs out there.